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RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
From: "dave kleiman" <dave () davekleiman com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:00:24 -0500

Craig,

A. Information Technology Forensics defined:  IT forensics is the practice
of investigating electronic systems, devices, and media for the purpose of
discovering and analyzing available information that may serve as useful
evidence.


B. IT Forensics is an investigation process that is rapidly becoming a field
in its own, it is the process of identifying, preserving, and analyzing
electronic data in a forensically sound manner, conducting examinations
within the constraints of local law, in a reproducible manner, and compiling
the results in such a way as to withstand courtroom scrutiny.

C. Investigations are the systematic and thorough gathering, examining, and
studying of factual information that results in the factual explanation of
what transpired.

D. Forensics Management is defined as those concepts and principles that
information security professionals (i.e., CISSPs) need to know in order to
successfully participate in a forensics-related event.

A. What makes up a good Forensic Incident Response team?

i. The Incident Response Teams may well have to act in a forensically sound
manner when performing their duties.  This may not necessarily require a
second, separate Incident Response team, from one that may well already be
in place to address non-forensic security issues.

B. The team should include representatives from legal counsel and Human
Resources.  They should be consulted on all polices and procedures before
implementation.  Additionally, their expertise will be invaluable once the
data is collected and examined.

A. Electronic Discovery defined: “The process of identifying, locating,
securing and producing electronic data for evidence in litigation.  Also
called: Electronic Evidence Discovery, eMail Evidence Discovery,
Electronic-discovery, eMail Search and Discovery, Email Discoverability,
Content Discovery, Electronic Content Discovery, Electronic Evidence,
Computer-based Discovery, Legal Discovery, Electronic Data Discovery, e-Mail
Discoverability, Electronic Data Management, eDiscovery, Digital Evidence
Discovery, Enterprise Search and Discovery, EDD, e-Discovery, Digital
Discovery, Electronic Information Discovery, Digital Evidence, and
Electronic Document Discovery.”
http://www.bitpipe.com/tlist/Electronic-Discovery.html

B. Evidence defined: All the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the
truth of which is submitted to investigation at judicial trial, is
established or disproved.  Evidence includes the testimony of witnesses,
introduction of records, exhibits, objects or any other probative matter
offered for the purpose of inducting belief in the party’s contention by the
fact-finder.

C. It is best practice to treat all cases as they may end up in litigation.
Therefore, we should ensure our evidence follows the rules of evidence.

Now that we all proved we now how to use a dictionary, an Incident Response
team MUST act in a forensically sound manner and be made up of Forensic
Investigators.  This is particularly true in the First Responder team, where
the Forensic Investigator decides the persons and procedures for the
particular incident.



Respectfully,

______________________________________________________
Dave Kleiman, CAS,CCE,CIFI,CISM,CISSP,ISSAP,ISSMP,MCSE

http://www.davekleiman.com/about.php
 





     -----Original Message-----
     From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
     Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 17:00
     To: Craig Wright; Robinson, Sonja;
     security-basics () securityfocus com
     Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator


     Hello,

     Just to be particularly annoying...

     Forensic 1. relating to, connected with, or used in courts
     of law or public discussion and debate.
     2. adapted or suited to argumentation; argumentative.
     3. applied to the process of collecting evidence for a legal case:
     forensic accounting; forensic archaeology; forensic
     linguistics. [Latin
     forens(is) of the forum + -IC] --forensically, adverb

     Just to reiterate. Forensic = court. Incident response is
     the correct terminology that moist people are in all
     actuality coming to the belief to be forensics.

     Regards
     Craig
     -----Original Message-----
     From: Craig Wright Sent: 7 February 2006 8:51
     To: 'Robinson, Sonja'; security-basics () securityfocus com
     Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

     Hello,
     There is a confusion between forensic analysis and
     incident response.
     Although these are related and in fact many people do
     both, they are not the same. Incident response teams or
     personal are needed in many organisations. Having a good
     investigative team makes life easier for a forensic analyst.

     They are however different roles. Oft the roles will
     overlap, but the primary focus of forensics is obtaining
     and preserving evidence. This may go against a
     corporations aims to have production systems running as
     soon as possible.

     I am not talking of LE at all. Rather I am stating
     insolvency support, litigation support, etc.

     Network security does not mean knowing where to look for
     logs. This is a technical skill. Again a case where people
     get the more esoteric nature of the role confused with the
     technical skills.

     Very few people can investigate a hard drive in a manner
     that is acceptable without challenger in court. This is
     the role of forensics.
     General investigation is a role in incident response.

     I am sure that this will garnish further comment - but I
     am a purist when it comes to definitive terminology.
     Incident response and Forensics are separate (though
     related disciplines). Most of the comments are asking
     about the former though stating them as the latter.

     Regards
     Craig

     -----Original Message-----
     From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com]
     Sent: 7 February 2006 1:51
     To: Craig Wright; security-basics () securityfocus com
     Subject: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

     I'm Sorry but I have to disagree with some of your
     statements while I agree with some others.

     1)  Many corporations in the US and around the world are
     hiring EXPERIENCED forensic personnel.  I have worked as a
     consultant and for private companies doing forensics for
     over 8 years now.  My start was private.  I have never
     been "employed" by LE however, I have been hired by
     govts/military for jobs.  You can start entry level Info
     Security and get trained by one of their staff if they
     feel you are up to the challenge.  I am training a few
     co-workers myself and am helping them on
     the career path.   Why corporate?  Espionage, sexual
     harrasment, porn,
     assault/murder, hacking/incident response, identity theft,
     HIPAA/SOX, resource abuse, etc. etc.  Believe me, there's
     plenty of work on the corporate side - you don't have to
     go LE if you don't want to.  That's just the tip of the
     iceberg.  You must assume that your cases will go to
     court, especially if employees are terminated as a result
     of your investigation.  Sometimes you work hand in hand
     with LE.  You can get more than they can until you become
     their agent for internal investigations.  But that's where
     you need ot know the law aspect.
     Sometimes you need their assistance with items such as
     subpoenas, etc.
     Also with the Calif law that is being adopted throughout
     the US, you will be working with LE for disclousres.
     2)  Network security is essential if you want to perform
     and investigation.  How will you know where to look, what
     logs to obtain, etc.  You must also know the law in the
     country, states and other jurisdictions that the case
     involves (i.e subpoena in another state/country).  Nothing
     personal but with the right tools, most anyone can
     investigate a hard drive although they will most likely
     screw up the acquisition, chain of custody and legal
     aspects thereby nullifying their review.  Point being, it
     takes a lot of training and experience and if you can't
     find your way around a network you;ve got no business
     doing an investigation because you will only be looking at
     a small part of the picture in many cases.  3)  There is
     no "one" certification.  There are ones that are more
     common, advisable etc. but there is no one stop shopping.
     4)  I agree with everything up to the "after incident
     response".  This is because, IT people will most liekly
     trample your evidence.  Ideally you should be preserving
     evidence while they correct a problem so it should be in
     tandem.  Of course, many time it does occur after IT has
     responded and corrected an issue.  Your company should
     make a decision before hand wether their primary goal is
     recovery, forensics or both.
     The answer will vary by system, issue, etc.
     5)  There are classes you can take, some proprietary/some
     not.  There are many groups you can join to learn if you
     are truly interested.  The job can be boring and
     monotonous (i.e. Log reading and correlation) but it's
     also a lot of fun.  It's a big game of hide and seek and I
     think it's a blast.  It's never the same and you find out
     a lot about people.
     6)  I totally agree with pretty much every other statement
     of Craig's.
     It's work, it's integrity, it's honesty, a lot of good
     communication skills, a knowledge of law, operating
     systems, networking, incident response and recovery,
     network security, cryptography/steganography, and the
     ability to think like criminals/abusers without actually being one.
     You  must also remember that you can not speculate.  You
     present facts.
     7)  Forensics is a science of processes.  It deals in
     facts.  There ARE a lot of people and products who purport
     to be "forensics" but are not and are well, we'll just
     say, "not able to present or be presentable" in court for
     a number of reasons.


     Sonja L. Robinson, CISSP, CIFI, CISA, CISM Forensic
     Specialist, Digital Investigations HIP Information Security Group
     Tel: 212-806-4125
     srobinson () hipusa com

     -----Original Message-----
     From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
     Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:22 PM
     To: security-basics () securityfocus com
     Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator


     First, Computer Forensics is a separate discipline to
     Computer Security.
     Next, incident response in business is not generally about
     forensics nor does it have a lot to do with it.


     Other than a low level knowledge of systems (and forget
     the tools based
     - Encase training only - approach). A strong knowledge of
     law is required.

     Your job/role as a forensic services provider (of any
     type) is to provide court support. This is it - full stop.

     Your job is;
        1       Investigate. Document Preserve the "chain of evidence",
        2       Document everything. This is for and against. You have
     to be impartial.
        3       Be prepared to sit in court and have your life,
     experience and training picked apart.
        4       Answer the facts simply and succinctly, no more, no
     less. What you are asked you answer. Your opinion only
     comes into this when and IF your have been directly asked.

     The role is slow and methodological. If you think
     accounting and being an auditor is fun, than you may fit
     into the role.

     Complete some courses in English grammar and report
     writing. This is an essential skill. Spelling and
     punctuation can make or break your career in this field.

     Forensics has NOTHING to do with detection of an attack.
     It comes after the attack. It comes after the initial
     incident response process.
     Knowledge of incident response is needed to ensure the
     "chain of evidence", but it is not generally part of your
     role as a forensic analyst.

     SANs GCFA is a good preliminary as is CCE. Neither will
     make you more than an intern level by itself. You will be
     judged (at more than an intern level) on how you handle
     cases. How you respond in court. Many prospective
     employers will expect to view transcripts of cases you
     have been involved with to see how you handle under cross.

     You want to be top of the field. Many years. Much
     training. Calm demeanour. Honesty. Integrity. This is the
     simple answer. There is a great deal more as well. You
     need at least knowledge of the law (a degree is not
     necessary, but does help. This is how experience as an
     officer of the law aides). Absolutely NO knowledge of
     information security is required (in contradiction to
     popular belief). It does help.

     Familiarity of file-systems is crucial. Learn both Linux
     and Windows at the least. Understand how to create a
     timeline. Know how to extract and analyse slack space
     while maintaining evidential integrity. These are some of
     the required skills (tip of the iceberg).

     There are many people who profess to have computer forensic skills.
     There are very few who really have these skills. There are
     even fewer who can use their skills in court.


     Regards
     Craig


        Dr Craig S Wright DTh MNSA MMIT CISA CISM CISSP ISSMP ISSAP
     G7799 GCFA AFAIM Manager - Computer Assurance Services BDO
     Chartered Accountants & Advisers Level 19, 2 Market
     Street, Sydney, NSW 2001
     Telephone: +61 2 9286 5555
     Fax: +61 2 9993 9705
     Direct: +61 2 9286 5497
     <Mailto:CWright () bdosyd com au>


     -----Original Message-----
     From: mhayden [mailto:mike_hayden () quintum com]

     Sent: 2 February 2006 7:46
     To: security-basics () securityfocus com
     Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

     Koolk3,

     I am also looking into this, I don't have much information
     but this is what I've gathered:

     - There seem to genarally be 2 facets of Forensics:
     * Computer Forensics - pouring over someone's harddrive to
     gather and document evidence.
     * Network Forensics - Alot of what the folks on this list
     do on a day to day basis, intrusion protection, detection
     and analysis.

     You can persue one or the other but it sounds like you
     want a combination of both.

     - It has been suggested to me that if I was interested I
     should persue a Law Enforcement career and go at it from
     that angle.  I have been a Software developer for almost
     20 years, in the US I'm too old for Law Enforcement (35
     yrs is the cutoff in my state) so that option is out for me.

     - Another suggestion was the FBI or CIA as a civilian
     professional or if you meet the age/citizenship criteria an Agent.

     - There are also private companies that do Computer
     Forensics and are hired out by Lawyers or Law Enforcement
     that need the help when computers are acquired in crimes.

     I have taken a Computer Forensics class at the college
     level to get a feel for that but unfortunately that isn't
     enough to get you in the door (unless you get lucky).  I
     also get the feeling that without an IT background you are
     out in the cold.

     Another suggestion was to join one of the local chapters
     of the IACIS (International Association of Computer
     Investigative Specialists).  I think you would need to be
     invited in my an existing member and I'm not sure if its
     only open to Law Enforcement folks checkout there website
     (http://www.iacis.info/iacisv2/pages/home.php).  There are
     many different groups, some are open to civilians and some are not.

     Hope this helps a bit.  I look forward to comments from
     others to help me in my quest also.

     MH




     -----Original Message-----
     From:
     security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.com () securi
tyfocus.com
     [mailto:security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.co
m () securityfoc
     us.com]On Behalf Of Koolk3
     Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 12:21 PM
     To: security-basics () securityfocus com
     Subject: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator


     Hi List,

     I tried posting this before, didn't go through. So I am
     trying again.

     I am interested in becoming a Forensics/Cyber Crime
     Investigator preferably with any law enforcement agency in
     Canada. I will graduate this April with a Bachelor in
     Computer Engineering. I have some experince in Forensics
     and IT security from coop placements and wanted to take
     this option as a career.

     My questions are:

     1) What kind of certification is the most
     demanding/respected among law enforcement aganices in Canada/US?

     2) If anyone on the list is with RCMP, OPP or any other
     law enforcement agency here could you please give me any
     information on a possible career path. Where do I start?
     Are these kind of jobs considered as a civilian job?

     3) Those in the USA: could you please tell me if I can
     have any prospect there as a Canadian citizen. I would
     imagine you would need an US citizen to work in the law
     enforcement agencies, but what about private organizations?

     4) Any information in building a career path in this field
     would be helpful.

     Thanks everyone.

     --
     KoolK3

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     The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec
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     Liability limited by a scheme approved under Professional
     Standards Legislation in respect of matters arising within
     those States and Territories of Australia where such
     legislation exists.

     DISCLAIMER
     The information contained in this email and any
     attachments is confidential. If you are not the intended
     recipient, you must not use or disclose the information.
     If you have received this email in error, please inform us
     promptly by reply email or by telephoning +61 2 9286 5555.
     Please delete the email and destroy any printed copy.
     Any views expressed in this message are those of the
     individual sender. You may not rely on this message as
     advice unless it has been electronically signed by a
     Partner of BDO or it is subsequently confirmed by letter
     or fax signed by a Partner of BDO.

     BDO accepts no liability for any damage caused by this
     email or its attachments due to viruses, interference,
     interception, corruption or unauthorised access.

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     EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
     The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec
     management education and the case study affords you
     unmatched consulting experience.
     Tailor your education to your own professional goals with
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     Business Continuity Planning, Computer Emergency Response
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EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management 
education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience. 
Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree 
customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning, 
Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations. 

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