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RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 08:28:48 +1100


First, to "** "Moist"???  Are people perspiring *that* much?  ;P", most
of course, fat fingers and a lack of checking on my part.

Forensics, IT or otherwise is related to a legal process. Your own post
does not do anything to alter this fact. The collection of evidence in a
legally sound manner is a process based on the acquisition for court.
This does not (and I have not stated this) mean that the collection of
evidence for a court means that there is any prospect of actually going
to court.

Most cases and disputes are settled outside of court and do not involve
the legal jurisdictional controls. This said, obtaining a search warrant
(for LE) or an Anton Pillar (for civil searches) requires an order from
the court. The nature of the orders sought will determine the court that
needs to be approached in first instance. This may be a magistrate,
state or federal court (or the local, district etc for those in other
countries).

A failure to execute the search correctly (even with incriminating
evidence discovered) leaves the initiating party up to a claim for
damages. It also may invalidate the evidence in the worst case and at
the least decreases its weight.

Motivation is ok for an incident response adept to attempt. It is not a
good area to go in forensics. Unless you are a criminologist, the
opposing council will use this to attack your report and credentials in
court. In forensics one has to stick to the facts. This is the facts in
totality, whether they help or hurt the clients case. A forensic witness
is considered an expert witness in court and has to be impartial and
have no personal opinion. The facts and only the facts.

I have barely touched incident response and am willing to start a
separate thread for this topic, but as this thread started with
Forensics, I believe that this is where it should be focused. If you
will read my posts - you may not that I am stating that Forensic
computing and Incident response are separate disciplines.

Regards,
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Radvanovsky [mailto:rsradvan () unixworks net]
Sent: 8 February 2006 1:01
To: Craig Wright; Robinson, Sonja; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

See comments below.

Bob Radvanovsky, CISM, CIFI, REM, CIPS
"knowledge squared is information shared"
rsradvan (at) unixworks.net | infracritical.com | ehealthgrid.com
(630) 673-7740 | (412) 774-0373 (fax)

----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
To: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au], "Robinson, Sonja"
[mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com], security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator



Hello,

Just to be particularly annoying...

Forensic

1. relating to, connected with, or used in courts of law or public
discussion and debate.
2. adapted or suited to argumentation; argumentative.
3. applied to the process of collecting evidence for a legal case:
forensic accounting; forensic archaeology; forensic linguistics.
[Latin
forens(is) of the forum + -IC]

--forensically, adverb

Just to reiterate. Forensic = court. Incident response is the correct
terminology that moist people are in all actuality coming to the
belief

** "Moist"???  Are people perspiring *that* much?  ;P

** You are partially wrong in one term, and way off in the other term. 
** def: "forensics science" (ref:
http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312020/whatisforens.htm)
** "Forensic science is any science used for the purposes of the law,
and therefore provides
** impartial scientific evidence for use in the courts of law, and in a
criminal
** investigation and trial. Forensic science is a multidisciplinary
subject,
** drawing principally from chemistry and biology, but also from
physics, geology,
** psychology, social science, etc."

** "Forensics" is often used to first *determine* through evidentuary
methods
** (if possible, or obtainable), **IF** prosecution will be, or can be,
possible, so it
** does not mean that a court hearing or prosecution trial is underway,
or about to
** begin.  In most circumstances, forensic investigations are conducted
BEFORE the trial.
** Lack of evidence, lack of chain of events leading to the crime (if
any were committed),
** etc., are first determined by forensics specialists.

** Standard "forensics science" may also apply to IT or cyberforensics,
but is treated as,
** or considered as, a subset to, general forensics.

** As defined: "Computer forensics, also called cyberforensics, is the
application
** of computer investigation and analysis techniques to gather evidence
suitable
** for presentation in a court of law. The goal of computer forensics is
to perform
** a structured investigation while maintaining a documented chain of
evidence to
** find out exactly what happened on a computer and who was responsible
for it."
** (ref:
http://searchcio.techtarget.com/gDefinition/0,294236,sid19_gci1007675,00
.html)

** The definition for "incident response" is significantly different.
The term, by itself,
** is (purely) a reactionary response to an event, incident, or
catastrophic scenario.
** This is (often times) reflective of an anticipated course of action
that is taken
** immediately following such an event, or resulting from the outcome
from such an event
** (say a fire that destroys a building).  Disaster Recovery Planning
and Business
** Continuity Planning are both forms of incident response.  BCP
demonstrates what will be
** done to ensure that the business *continues* to operate as normally
as possible after an
** incident.  DRP demonstrates how to handle the incident, who is to be
involved, and what
** measures are needed to be taken to ensure "cleanup" of the disaster.

** Another definition: "Incident response is an organized approach to
addressing and
** managing the aftermath of a security breach or attack (also known as
an incident).
** The goal is to handle the situation in a way that limits damage and
reduces
** recovery time and costs. An incident response plan includes a policy
that defines,
** in specific terms, what constitutes an incident and provides a
step-by-step process
** that should be followed when an incident occurs."
** (ref:
http://searchcio.techtarget.com/gDefinition/0,294236,sid19_gci1121085_al
pI,00.html)

** Incident Response Management (IRM) deals with both man-made disasters
*and* natural
** disasters.  How is forensics tied to IRM based on a natural disaster?

** Think of it as like this: forensics science finds out who did it, and
how they did it,
** and (perhaps) what was their motivation for doing it.  Incident
response finds out
** what happened, how it happened, what caused it, and how is the
business going to
** continue its course of operations.  Incident response might be
responsive to an event
** caused by a single individual that is reflective of an forensics
investigation; but may
** not necessarily always be so. 

** Though these terms may be inter-related, often times, they are
usually not.

** One more thing to remember.  Incident response works at identifying
FOUR (4) basic
** principles: PREPARATION, PROTECTION, RESPONSE, and RECOVERY.  I feel
that a few more
** principles could be added, but for the most part, the industry feels
that *primarily*
** these principles are a good start.  PREPARATION represents measures
taken to ensure
** and minimize operational outages.  PROTECTION represents safeguarding
activity
** against tampering and operational outages.  RESPONSE represents
measures taken after
** an "incident" has occurred.  RECOVERY represents measures taken to
RESTORE the
** enterprise to previous operational levels.  "RECOVERY" is sometimes
referred to as
** "RESTORATION".

to be forensics.

Regards
Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Wright

Sent: 7 February 2006 8:51
To: 'Robinson, Sonja'; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

Hello,
There is a confusion between forensic analysis and incident response.
Although these are related and in fact many people do both, they are
not the same. Incident response teams or personal are needed in many
organisations. Having a good investigative team makes life easier for
a forensic analyst.

They are however different roles. Oft the roles will overlap, but the
primary focus of forensics is obtaining and preserving evidence. This
may go against a corporations aims to have production systems running
as soon as possible.

I am not talking of LE at all. Rather I am stating insolvency support,

litigation support, etc.

Network security does not mean knowing where to look for logs. This is

a technical skill. Again a case where people get the more esoteric
nature of the role confused with the technical skills.

Very few people can investigate a hard drive in a manner that is
acceptable without challenger in court. This is the role of forensics.
General investigation is a role in incident response.

I am sure that this will garnish further comment - but I am a purist
when it comes to definitive terminology. Incident response and
Forensics are separate (though related disciplines). Most of the
comments are asking about the former though stating them as the
latter.

Regards
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Robinson, Sonja [mailto:SRobinson () HIPUSA com]
Sent: 7 February 2006 1:51
To: Craig Wright; security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: Spam: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

I'm Sorry but I have to disagree with some of your statements while I
agree with some others.

1)  Many corporations in the US and around the world are hiring
EXPERIENCED forensic personnel.  I have worked as a consultant and for

private companies doing forensics for over 8 years now.  My start was
private.  I have never been "employed" by LE however, I have been
hired by govts/military for jobs.  You can start entry level Info
Security and get trained by one of their staff if they feel you are up

to the challenge.  I am training a few co-workers myself and am
helping them on the career path.

      Why corporate?  Espionage, sexual harrasment, porn,
assault/murder,
hacking/incident response, identity theft, HIPAA/SOX, resource abuse,
etc. etc.  Believe me, there's plenty of work on the corporate side -
you don't have to go LE if you don't want to.  That's just the tip of
the iceberg.  You must assume that your cases will go to court,
especially if employees are terminated as a result of your
investigation.  Sometimes you work hand in hand with LE.  You can get
more than they can until you become their agent for internal
investigations.  But that's where you need ot know the law aspect.
Sometimes you need their assistance with items such as subpoenas, etc.
Also with the Calif law that is being adopted throughout the US, you
will be working with LE for disclousres.
2)  Network security is essential if you want to perform and
investigation.  How will you know where to look, what logs to obtain,
etc.  You must also know the law in the country, states and other
jurisdictions that the case involves (i.e subpoena in another
state/country).  Nothing personal but with the right tools, most
anyone can investigate a hard drive although they will most likely
screw up the acquisition, chain of custody and legal aspects thereby
nullifying their review.  Point being, it takes a lot of training and
experience and if you can't find your way around a network you;ve got
no business doing an investigation because you will only be looking at

a small part of the picture in many cases.

3)  There is no "one" certification.  There are ones that are more
common, advisable etc. but there is no one stop shopping.

4)  I agree with everything up to the "after incident response".  This

is because, IT people will most liekly trample your evidence.  Ideally

you should be preserving evidence while they correct a problem so it
should be in tandem.  Of course, many time it does occur after IT has
responded and corrected an issue.  Your company should make a decision

before hand wether their primary goal is recovery, forensics or both.
The answer will vary by system, issue, etc.
5)  There are classes you can take, some proprietary/some not.  There
are many groups you can join to learn if you are truly interested. 
The job can be boring and monotonous (i.e. Log reading and
correlation) but it's also a lot of fun.  It's a big game of hide and
seek and I think it's a blast.  It's never the same and you find out a
lot about people.
6)  I totally agree with pretty much every other statement of Craig's.
It's work, it's integrity, it's honesty, a lot of good communication
skills, a knowledge of law, operating systems, networking, incident
response and recovery, network security, cryptography/steganography,
and the ability to think like criminals/abusers without actually being
one.
You  must also remember that you can not speculate.  You present
facts.
7)  Forensics is a science of processes.  It deals in facts.  There
ARE a lot of people and products who purport to be "forensics" but are

not and are well, we'll just say, "not able to present or be
presentable" in court for a number of reasons.


Sonja L. Robinson, CISSP, CIFI, CISA, CISM Forensic Specialist,
Digital Investigations HIP Information Security Group
Tel: 212-806-4125
srobinson () hipusa com



-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:22 PM
To: security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator


First, Computer Forensics is a separate discipline to Computer
Security.
Next, incident response in business is not generally about forensics
nor does it have a lot to do with it.


Other than a low level knowledge of systems (and forget the tools
based
- Encase training only - approach). A strong knowledge of law is
required.

Your job/role as a forensic services provider (of any type) is to
provide court support. This is it - full stop.

Your job is;
      1       Investigate. Document Preserve the "chain of evidence",
      2       Document everything. This is for and against. You have
to be impartial.
      3       Be prepared to sit in court and have your life,
experience and training picked apart.
      4       Answer the facts simply and succinctly, no more, no
less. What you are asked you answer. Your opinion only comes into this

when and IF your have been directly asked.

The role is slow and methodological. If you think accounting and being

an auditor is fun, than you may fit into the role.

Complete some courses in English grammar and report writing. This is
an essential skill. Spelling and punctuation can make or break your
career in this field.

Forensics has NOTHING to do with detection of an attack. It comes
after the attack. It comes after the initial incident response
process.
Knowledge of incident response is needed to ensure the "chain of
evidence", but it is not generally part of your role as a forensic
analyst.

SANs GCFA is a good preliminary as is CCE. Neither will make you more
than an intern level by itself. You will be judged (at more than an
intern level) on how you handle cases. How you respond in court. Many
prospective employers will expect to view transcripts of cases you
have been involved with to see how you handle under cross.

You want to be top of the field. Many years. Much training. Calm
demeanour. Honesty. Integrity. This is the simple answer. There is a
great deal more as well. You need at least knowledge of the law (a
degree is not necessary, but does help. This is how experience as an
officer of the law aides). Absolutely NO knowledge of information
security is required (in contradiction to popular belief). It does
help.

Familiarity of file-systems is crucial. Learn both Linux and Windows
at the least. Understand how to create a timeline. Know how to extract

and analyse slack space while maintaining evidential integrity. These
are some of the required skills (tip of the iceberg).

There are many people who profess to have computer forensic skills.
There are very few who really have these skills. There are even fewer
who can use their skills in court.


Regards
Craig


      Dr Craig S Wright DTh MNSA MMIT CISA CISM CISSP ISSMP ISSAP
G7799 GCFA AFAIM Manager - Computer Assurance Services BDO Chartered
Accountants & Advisers Level 19, 2 Market Street, Sydney, NSW 2001
Telephone: +61 2 9286 5555
Fax: +61 2 9993 9705
Direct: +61 2 9286 5497
<Mailto:CWright () bdosyd com au>


-----Original Message-----
From: mhayden [mailto:mike_hayden () quintum com]

Sent: 2 February 2006 7:46
To: security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator

Koolk3,

I am also looking into this, I don't have much information but this is

what I've gathered:

- There seem to genarally be 2 facets of Forensics:
* Computer Forensics - pouring over someone's harddrive to gather and
document evidence.
* Network Forensics - Alot of what the folks on this list do on a day
to day basis, intrusion protection, detection and analysis.

You can persue one or the other but it sounds like you want a
combination of both.

- It has been suggested to me that if I was interested I should persue

a Law Enforcement career and go at it from that angle.  I have been a
Software developer for almost 20 years, in the US I'm too old for Law
Enforcement (35 yrs is the cutoff in my state) so that option is out
for me.

- Another suggestion was the FBI or CIA as a civilian professional or
if you meet the age/citizenship criteria an Agent.

- There are also private companies that do Computer Forensics and are
hired out by Lawyers or Law Enforcement that need the help when
computers are acquired in crimes.

I have taken a Computer Forensics class at the college level to get a
feel for that but unfortunately that isn't enough to get you in the
door (unless you get lucky).  I also get the feeling that without an
IT background you are out in the cold.

Another suggestion was to join one of the local chapters of the IACIS
(International Association of Computer Investigative Specialists).  I
think you would need to be invited in my an existing member and I'm
not sure if its only open to Law Enforcement folks checkout there
website (http://www.iacis.info/iacisv2/pages/home.php).  There are
many different groups, some are open to civilians and some are not.

Hope this helps a bit.  I look forward to comments from others to help

me in my quest also.

MH




-----Original Message-----
From:
security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.com () securityfocus com
[mailto:security-basics-return-38141-mike_hayden=quintum.com () securityf
oc
us.com]On Behalf Of Koolk3
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 12:21 PM
To: security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: Forensic/Cyber Crime Investigator


Hi List,

I tried posting this before, didn't go through. So I am trying again.

I am interested in becoming a Forensics/Cyber Crime Investigator
preferably with any law enforcement agency in Canada. I will graduate
this April with a Bachelor in Computer Engineering. I have some
experince in Forensics and IT security from coop placements and wanted

to take this option as a career.

My questions are:

1) What kind of certification is the most demanding/respected among
law enforcement aganices in Canada/US?

2) If anyone on the list is with RCMP, OPP or any other law
enforcement agency here could you please give me any information on a
possible career path. Where do I start? Are these kind of jobs
considered as a civilian job?

3) Those in the USA: could you please tell me if I can have any
prospect there as a Canadian citizen. I would imagine you would need
an US citizen to work in the law enforcement agencies, but what about
private organizations?

4) Any information in building a career path in this field would be
helpful.

Thanks everyone.

--
KoolK3

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EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The Norwich

University program offers unparalleled Infosec management education
and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience.

Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree
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University program offers unparalleled Infosec management education
and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience.

Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree
customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity
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Liability limited by a scheme approved under Professional Standards
Legislation in respect of matters arising within those States and
Territories of Australia where such legislation exists.

DISCLAIMER
The information contained in this email and any attachments is
confidential.
If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use or disclose
the information. If you have received this email in error, please
inform us promptly by reply email or by telephoning +61 2 9286 5555.
Please delete the email and destroy any printed copy.


Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender. You may not rely on this message as advice unless it has been
electronically signed by a Partner of BDO or it is subsequently
confirmed by letter or fax signed by a Partner of BDO.

BDO accepts no liability for any damage caused by this email or its
attachments due to viruses, interference, interception, corruption or
unauthorised access.

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----- EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE The
Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management
education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting
experience.
Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree
customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity
Planning,

Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations.

http://www.msia.norwich.edu/secfocus
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Liability limited by a scheme approved under Professional Standards Legislation in respect of matters arising within 
those States and Territories of Australia where such legislation exists.

DISCLAIMER
The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you 
must not use or disclose the information. If you have received this email in error, please inform us promptly by reply 
email or by telephoning +61 2 9286 5555. Please delete the email and destroy any printed copy. 

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. You may not rely on this message as advice 
unless it has been electronically signed by a Partner of BDO or it is subsequently confirmed by letter or fax signed by 
a Partner of BDO.

BDO accepts no liability for any damage caused by this email or its attachments due to viruses, interference, 
interception, corruption or unauthorised access.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management
education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience.
Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree
customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning,
Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations.

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