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RE: death of the security community
From: Bob Radvanovsky <rsradvan () unixworks net>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 14:23:02 -0600

See comments below.

----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
To: John Vill [mailto:kalookalaa () hotmail com], security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: death of the security community



Hello,
I agree with "The fewer people who are learning about computer security
the bigger the threat becomes". I would have to add that I do not agree
that there was ever a large or significant proportion of people in the
field however.

Agreed.  This has been a relatively small field/industry that has exploded within the past 3-5 years.  However, simply 
having a title with the word "security" on it does not constitute (to me) people who are *knowledgeable* IN "computer 
security" (per se).

I would also disagree with the analogy of the flow of information drying
up to just a few drops. There are large deposits of information, papers
educational material etc available. MIT has open learning and offer
course curricula for free.

'Ya just gotta know where 'ta look for it.  REMEMBER: "Google is *your* friend."  ;)  When in doubt, Google IT!!(tm)

The difference is that there is a greater requirement for knowledge. One
who could just get into the industry with no training or experience but
to whom the "wizardry" or being a home Linux user propelled forward
would have a hope a decade ago. Now that person is just another
wantabee. Not that things are perfect yet.

So tell me (either you, or anyone else reading this on the discussion forum)...is there such a thing as a 'script 
kiddie security analyst'?  By this, I am referring to the many (so-called) "security consultants" from the large 
security/auditing consulting companies who simply run a suite of programs that are pre-defined in their requirements 
and puke out a large report that looks intimidating, charging  tens of thousands of dollars to state that they've done 
a "security assessment".  I *challenge* anyone who works in this realm of the industry who feels otherwise -- BUT TO 
TAKE MY CHALLENGE ERQUIRES PROOF.  If you disagree with me, your mission is to provide something that disproves me 
"theory" (the reason that I state "theory" in quotes is that I've been through 5 security [ahem] "assessments" from 
rather large, reputable consulting firms, only to do the EXACT SAME BLOODY THING that I did before they did theirs, and 
more importantly, have them charge between $50,000 and $300,000 for an "assessment" -- I have proof, too) that larger 
security consulting companies merely run the same set of suites of programs that everyone can do (and does) "in-house".

Just because you know know to start the NMAP program does NOT constitute that you know *how* to "run" NMAP and what it 
actually does.  Too many times, people have stated to me that they've run NMAP, but are unable to tell me how they did 
their test, and why it was necessary.

The issue is the lack of knowledge generally. Finding basic mathematical
skills is becoming more difficult (Bayesian Networks for Risk - there
are applications). Grammatical skills (writing a report). The technical
skills are becoming easier to find. Unfortunately they are of less use
to an organisation unless they are supported by other skills.

Agreed.  The human (interaction) skills are (by far) THE MOST IMPORTANT skills needed.  

QUOTE OF THE YEAR "Anyone can use a "techno monkey" to run NMAP."

-rad

SIG: "'Ya just gotta love it, baby!  Pucker up and kiss 'da fish!!!"


Regards,
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: John Vill [mailto:kalookalaa () hotmail com]

Sent: 21 March 2006 7:56
To: security-basics () securityfocus com
Subject: RE: death of the security community

Its like video games... PC games used to rule and it was all good. Now
people realize how much money can be made in that industry so theres
just one crappy fps after another because consoles have taken over.
Hmmm, maybe that was a little bit of a stretch but hopefully you get
what I mean. I think the community is already dead. Its not the way it
used to be and it won't be like that again anytime soon. It seems like
the free flow of knowledge has been reduced to a few drops here and
there. The fewer people who are learning about computer security the
bigger the threat becomes.



I seem not to understand what is happening to the security

community..The profit and earning a living of the expert in the field

is going to lead to the death of the security community.Now full

disclosure movement is getting to be commercial disclosure, whereby

each security community wants to expliot you to pay them to even get

the latest vulnerability report and expliot,even when you need it to

penetrate your server before the bad guy does.Which doesnt aid the

people of the basics but even helps the scriptkiddie community(the

greatest fear we face)I hope attention is given to these...and d

fathers of d security comm' should have a re think, cos the continuity

of the pursue of profit would bring the security of the internet wide
as an open gate.

odabo




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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
EARN A MASTER OF SCIENCE IN INFORMATION ASSURANCE - ONLINE
The Norwich University program offers unparalleled Infosec management
education and the case study affords you unmatched consulting experience.
Tailor your education to your own professional goals with degree
customizations including Emergency Management, Business Continuity Planning,
Computer Emergency Response Teams, and Digital Investigations.

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