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Re: pen test
From: Ken.Carty () RSCrental com
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:26:19 -0600

Well said!


             "Michael R.                                                   
             <mike () security-bo                                          To 
             unce.com>                 "Worrell, Brian"                    
             Sent by:                  <BWorrell () isdh IN gov>, "Marty      
             listbounce () securi         Resnick" <marty () techmaking com>,    
             tyfocus.com               listbounce () securityfocus com,       
                                       <security-basics () securityfocus com> 
             12/12/2007 08:12                                           cc 
                                       Re: pen test                        
             Please respond to                                             
             mike () security-bou                                             


This whole question has evolved into something completely different, you
asked a question here on the list, we tried to give you some pointers and
now some bizar reference to and nist doc and "the feds" have changed things
in recent years.

When you make a reference to the NIST or "The Feds" please provide
validation to your statements so we can further refernce your resources. If
you are going to send me a document 178 pages long refernce the page to
support your argument.
You are not providing any REAL question anymore. Your question was could
you pen test your host, I could have said ask them, but instead provided
many options and answers and now you try to evolve the original question
into something completely different. Are you inadvertantly trying to seem
robust to this list? To further that statement are you trying to use this
list as a form of marketing for your partially completed site? Do you plan
on "pen-testing" the websites that you install and configure? That's wrong

You then flip this whole thread around by providing advice to me, which
furthers by point of you marketing yourself, when the initial question was
posed by you. I am well aware of many things and your simple question was
answered, you now throw risk assessment into the mix, tattered with nist
documentation that is for IT infrastructure and has a nothing to do with
your question, "can I pen-test my hosting provider". Does NIST have a
document for pen-testing your hosting provider, if so read it it will
probably answer your questions, if not take the lists advice and move on

And last but not least, your hosting provider is in Geismar, Louisiana and
not the UK, so when you leave a link make sure it is a reference to the
United States, laws are different.

I apologize if this sounds abrasive, but your question seems loaded. Here
is the number to your hosting provider call them and ask them, or asl
theplanet.com (second number) since they own the servers.


Michael R. Martinez
TF: 800-987-7307

-----Original Message-----
From: "Worrell, Brian" <BWorrell () isdh IN gov>

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:45:49
To:<mike () security-bounce com>,"Marty Resnick"
<marty () techmaking com>,<listbounce () securityfocus com>,"security-basics"
<security-basics () securityfocus com>
Subject: RE: pen test


The Feds have changed things in recent years, in such that Pen testing
on your own gear / apps is a suggesting thing.  Go look at the Nist
800-100 document. Below is a copy of what they say you SHOULD do as part
of a Vulnerability Identification step of a Risk Management plan.

**System security testing, using methods such as automated vulnerability
scanning tools; security, test, and evaluation (ST&E); and penetration
testing can be used to augment the vulnerability source reviews and
identify vulnerabilities that may not have been previously identified in
other sources.**

NIST 800-30 goes on to say **The automated vulnerability scanning tool
is used to scan a group of hosts or a network for known vulnerable
services (e.g., system allows anonymous File Transfer Protocol [FTP],
sendmail relaying).**

I recall seeing a demo of a pen testing tool that did not exploit them,
but did run checks to see if you were open to them.

All I am saying is that if you are suppose to do a Risk Assessment due
to HIPAA or even the PCI-DSS, it has to be more than a port scan, you
have to assess the patch level, known coding issues, etc, or you are not
meeting the regs / laws.  Still, I would work with your web host, and
get a project plan together, and document and see.  Who knows, maybe you
just need to VM the box and pen test if off the VM not the live.


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael R. Martinez [mailto:mike () security-bounce com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:05 PM
To: Worrell, Brian; Marty Resnick; listbounce () securityfocus com;
Subject: Re: pen test


A vulnerability assessment is completely different as well. Yes, you can
assess the vulnerability from a technilogical standpoint of your host.
For example, an open port, let's say, port 80 is open on your host. What
you are looking for is a vulnerability, port 80 "can" be vulnerability.
My "want" to attack that port can, and the vulnerabilities associated
with port 80, create the exploit. Basically, a vulnerability assessment
is a test to see what ports are open and if any are open are they
vulnerable to the attack. After which you begin to label the likelyhood,
high, med, low or scale it 1-10.

You are not wrong about the laws, such as PCI compliance that want you
to testprocess, procedures and technology, but PCI is more than just
testing ports, its identify process associated with how you handle
personal identifiable information, privacy practices, physical access to
servers, procedures, etc. Port scanning for vulnerabilities is a
component of the overall compliance test.

You cannot ask your host to subvert there security measures but they
will certainly deny you, you can however, ask that you run security
scans because there are services for this such as comodo and scan alert.

I am well aware of the security certs out there and the C|EH as I am a
certified ethical hacker among sevaral other security certs, I just
don't add them on because 1) there are guys with no certs that are just
as good and 2) they mean I passed a test. From my answers I hope you can
judge me and not my certs.

Having said that, I hope I clarified some of this for you and if not
feel free to respond back.



Michael R. Martinez
TF: 800-987-7307

-----Original Message-----
From: "Worrell, Brian" <BWorrell () isdh IN gov>

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:13:41
To:<mike () security-bounce com>,"Marty Resnick"
<marty () techmaking com>,<listbounce () securityfocus com>,"security-basics"
<security-basics () securityfocus com>
Subject: RE: pen test


Am I wrong, but there are lots of practices and in some cases laws that
say that you need to run  vulnerability assessments to be compliant.
If you were to ask you web host in writing before doing it, that should
solve the possible "legality" issue that it sounds like you talking

As far as I know, White Hat hacking has never been illegal, if done
correctly and above board.  If it was, why would SANS and other offer
Certified Hacker classes and certs?


-----Original Message-----
From: listbounce () securityfocus com [mailto:listbounce () securityfocus com]
On Behalf Of Michael R. Martinez
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 7:54 PM
To: Marty Resnick; listbounce () securityfocus com; security-basics
Subject: Re: pen test


absolutely not, this is called hacking. Pen testing is actively
exploiting a server, identifying a weakness exploiting gaining access.
Are you talking about scanning ports? Could you provide a little more
detail. If you mean pen-testing, then the answer is no.

------Original Message------
From: Marty Resnick
Sender: listbounce () securityfocus com
To: security-basics
Sent: Dec 10, 2007 9:35 AM
Subject: pen test

Am I able to pen test or run a vulnerability assessment on my web
hosting company. I got the idea after reading this article.

Marty Resnick
Techmaking Inc.
(877) 291-1110 (office)
(661) 209-2089 (mobile)
(805) 512-9603 (fax)
marty () techmaking com

Michael R. Martinez
TF: 800-987-7307

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