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Re: The Neutron Star
From: Fionnbharr <thouth () gmail com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 10:38:44 +1000

But the NSA do help American companies win contracts / do industrial
espionage. One link I have handy is
http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm#10 (scroll down to 10.7 for the
list) which has a short list of known cases from the 90's put out by the
European parliament. Also note that it's countries that the US would
probably consider friendly that they're hacking, not just the main economic

It might not be on the same level as the Chinese but it's disingenuous to
suggest American businesses are somehow the innocent bystanders caught in
the cross fire or that there isn't some precedent for this behaviour by the

On 26 June 2013 23:53, Dave Aitel <dave () immunityinc com> wrote:


Normally I don't like to stick my toe in the neutron star's gravity well
that is the NSA-Snowden discussion. But it's important to point out that
there are developing standards of behavior being negotiated not between
China and the US, but between corporations and governments as a whole.

Chinese media has been going on for a week about how the Snowden PRISM
revelations about the US hacking China are in some way equitable to the US
complaints about Chinese government sponsored hacking for the purposes of
economic espionage. This is pure public relations nonsense. The complaints
US industry has about Chinese state sponsored hacking is not that it is
occurring, but that the fruits of the hacking are being given directly to
Chinese companies which compete with US (or European, or Korean, etc.)

It is impossible as a US company to go to the NSA and say "Hey, my
competitor in China makes a pretty nice bulldozer, can I have the plans to
that? Also it'd be nice to know what their bid is on that contract in
Malaysia we both want to win."

It's just that simple. Company's hate being forced to give information to
their governments, or trojan their networking equipment (in the case of
Huawei and ZTE). It's *bad* for business. Especially when you get caught
or it gets leaked (which it ALWAYS does one way or the other).

But they hate state-sponsored economic espionage more and I hardly think
Chinese companies would enjoy a change in Washington's tune that allowed US
companies to employ the full power of the NSA against them.


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