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RE: [in] Re: IE is just as safe as FireFox
From: "joe" <mvp () joeware net>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:21:02 -0500


I guess you probably mean me. I don't take offense to it though as you
aren't really technically correct but I understand where you are trying to
come from (I think) and trust that you believe what you say versus just
being a zealot and thinking anything but Windows.

1. The first account created on Windows is Administrator, it is the
administrator account, just like *NIX's first account is root. Outside of
that then the next account is the account of the person building the box. I
haven't built one through the default processes in several months but I
think the last time I did I was offered the choice of making the account
limited or admin. I personally didn't like the term limited because who is
going to give themselves a limited account if an unlimited account is
available as an option. Everyone wants the bigger/better whatever when the
two choices sit next to each other even if they don't know what is supposed
to be better about it. It is why people buy the newer electronics every
couple of years and the single guy buys the Excursion over the Expedition
over the Explorer over the escort. He has one person to carry around but the
SUVs are bigger and better even though he may never carry a single thing or
another living soul the whole time he has it. 

Anyway, the base cause is a simple one, Windows is consumer based and *nix
wasn't and really still isn't. Look at the market penetrations. *nix tends
to have people already knowledgeable with its workings or people who WANT to
learn the details using it, windows primary users have no experience and
want none. A *nix user with no computer experience will get extremely
frustrated very quickly, every time they go to do something they feel they
should, they get slapped down (I, in my security thoughtful opinion do not
think this is a bad idea). Windows initially was a standalone OS, recall it
was Microsoft initially thinking there was nothing to the internet and
spinning the opposite direction. UNIX was designed from scratch to be
networked, and even it had poor initial security when it was really tested.
Couple that with the idea that MS doesn't like to leave people behind and it
is all logical progression as to where we have gotten where we are (contrast
with Apple - can you run an Apple II app on OSX? I have DOS apps written in
86/87 still running fine today, doesn't require admin either). However, that
being said, they are offering more and more tools to make it possible to run
securely. You will be seeing a rather cool app in the fairly near time frame
to help the whole running as admin issue.

Outside of new stuff that is coming, there are a ton of features that have
been around for some time to help with this stuff. I personally have run
corporate Windows NT Machines as non-admin for some time, had a whole bank
division department running as Power User at best in 1996, it was possible
if you knew what you were doing as an admin. You had SU and net user /user:
in NT4 and the API was fully open but sorry if you can't write something
based on docs and instead need the source of the API instead. The big issue
from my standpoint was that it wasn't pushed as the way to do things, this
stuff wasn't mentioned in the MCSE courses[1]. In the end however, you could
blame the OS or you could blame the people using the machines. You have
blinkers on a car, it is the drivers choice to actually use them. 

2. I completely disagree here. Your experience is most likely with tech
people. Most users don't know and don't want to know the differences between
accounts and have to work out the idea that you have to log on in special
ways to install the latest game or image editing software for their digital
camera they just got for xmas. They are there to use the machine, not
understand it. Something MS could have done a long time ago and didn't
probably because it was outside of the normal mindset is to reduce
permissions when running certain apps. Say someone is running as admin, if
they fire up IE, that process gets run as guest or anything that is only
available to the administrator group is unavailable because that admin group
SID is removed from the token. This is done with the most recent version of
netmon which was surprising and quite annoying the first time I used it and
tried to save a CAP to c:\temp. 

Lets not hide from ourselves whats needed from MS to reach 
modern world security: a complete rewrite, and a ditch of 
old Dos base and the 20 years old legacy code.

Imagine, if you will, if they did this. Think of the fall out of SP2 alone
on this list which is supposed to have competent security professionals
primarily... Bill might as well just say, you know, I have made enough money
for myself and those I care about, let me just close the company down. Doing
this would most likely break just about everything if not everything. People
who already don't want to move from Win9x to WinXP because some odd piece of
crap software doesn't work the same way won't ever consider moving to the
new platform Q or whatever they choose to call it. This is such a
non-realistic viewpoint it is actually quite laughable. And again, if you go
back to a previous conversation from this list, it isn't all of Windows,
especially Windows kernel/core level stuff that has an issue. It is some key
pieces of the shell. Possibly in your understanding of Windows though, the
Shell is all of what you believe Windows is comprised of. 


[1] Don't get me started on MCSEs. As a whole I think they hurt Windows far
more than any other thing. A bunch of people who feel they are experts in
Windows because they took a couple of tests that 10 year olds could memorize
and pass and yet still not be able to run anything. The best I can say about
MCSEs is that I will *try* not to look down upon them for being MCSEs and
let them prove themselves to be worthless before I assume it in person. 

Let me choose if I even want a browser loaded thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com
[mailto:full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com] On Behalf Of devis
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 11:10 AM
Cc: full-disclosure () lists netsys com
Subject: Re: [in] Re: [Full-disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox

This message is primarily destined to all MS trolls, no matter their levels,
and i can see so many in this list that i am happy to target a large

Please run some unix or at least read about the unix permission system, and
lets pray god this sheds some light in your mono cultured brains. 
Here are the relevant points:

1) Despite recent ameliorations of MS ( multi user finally, permissions ...
) and some effort at making the system more secure, something very important
is still left out: The first default user of the MS computer is made an
administrator. This comes down to giving uid0 to ur first unix user. Unix
does NOT do that. It requieres you to use su and become root ( administrator
) after proper credentials submission ( password ). 
The first user is NOT and administrator, and any recent Unix documentation
will insist on the danger of running as root(admin). Unix keeps the admin
account well separated from the user account, which MS DOESN'T, despite all
wrong arguments i read on this list. VERY BAD practice generally. So its
user friendly, as the user has admin rights and can therefore install and
remove software and change major configuration. Majority of users don't and
will never know there is an 'administrator' user that hides from their eyes.
This little detail that apparently Ms people can't 'understand' is  a huge
step. Please install a proper unix, create 2 accounts and try to read the
home directory of the second user from the first.

2) "After all, they don;t need to know" . " You're on a need to know basis
Do MS really think the users are stupid ? Do understanding different IDs/
roles / accounts on a computer that much of a tough message to pass to the
end user ? Isn't security important and supposedly the goal of recent MS
developpements ? If they really did target security, their efforts will have
been into making the user understand that he should be admin to install
programs, and a non priviledged user to surf the web. 
IS that that hard to understand ? And that much hidden into high IT security
professionnal unreachable knowledge ? I don;t think so. Doesn't a company
such as MS has enough ressources to make that a priority and educate the
users ? Off course it has. Just not very 'commercially' 
friendly as if user then understand roles, it might requires less Anti
virus, personnal firewall and other bullshit FUD's scareware ( Yes its
scareware, and it is the best selling software category OF ALL times of
software history ).

This is why, Firefox being independant from this OS that carries 60 of its
code base as being legacy code for older system hardware and backward
compatibility, is likely more secure than the in house integrated
application. Now if u are running Firefox as an administrator .....don't be
surprised if something happens. Don;t blame the software, but your poor
security practices.

Lets not hide from ourselves whats needed from MS to reach modern world
a complete rewrite, and a ditch of old Dos base and the 20 years old legacy

Hopes that clears things.

Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html

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