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Re: [in] Re: IE is just as safe as FireFox
From: devis <devis () easynix net>
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 07:32:56 +0100

Paul Schmehl wrote:

--On Friday, November 19, 2004 01:12:31 PM -0500 "Crotty, Edward" <Edward.Crotty () dowjones com> wrote:

I'm not a Win based guy (troll?) - Un*x here - and even I was offended by

There is such a thing as "runas" for Windows.

That's not all.

-----Original Message-----
From: full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com
[mailto:full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com]On Behalf Of devis
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 11:10 AM
Cc: full-disclosure () lists netsys com
Subject: Re: [in] Re: [Full-disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox

1) Despite recent ameliorations of MS ( multi user finally, permissions
... ) and some effort at making the system more secure, something very
important is still left out: The first default user of the MS computer
is made an administrator.

Apparently you don't have very broad experience with OSes. ON *every* OS I'm familiar with, the first user is the administrator (or root) account.

Are You an idot ? When i start MS and look at my emty desktop, under what ID that graphic interface runs ?

If i configure my oulook and go to fetch nice infected mails, who i am then launching outlook ? Administrator

On unix, launching a graphic interface under root would have printed a big warning panel or for more descent OSes not allowed me AT ALL.

I am NOT argueing that the first user is and admin, i am argueing that the DEFAULT user is an admin. The default user on UNIX is not root.

Try to re reading before making a fool of yourself.

This comes down to giving uid0 to ur first
unix user. Unix does NOT do that. It requieres you to use su and become
root ( administrator ) after proper credentials submission ( password ).

When's the last time you installed an OS from scratch? Gentoo, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, RedHat, Fedora, Slackware, Mac OS X, Debian, Solaris, *all* create the first user as uid0 during the install process. (I can't speak for the others because I haven't done those, but I'd be willing to bet that NetBSD, AIX, HP-UX, SCO et. al. work exactly the same way.)

See up there. You need to learn to read and make sense of it. Once again, I AM NOT ARGUEING THAT THE FIRST ACCOUNT CREATED HAS AN UID0. Please open ur eyes and try to pinpoint the difference beetween first user and default user. Even MS is confused on that subject it seems.

Unix does not grant users root access by default, and it does a much better job of separating privileges by requiring you to join the wheel group *and* either use sudo or su to do work as root, but Windows doesn't make users the admin by default *either*, unless you setup Fast User Switching *during* the install.

IT does makes the first installer of the box the default user. And that first default user HAS administrator priviledges. What what part of this is not clear ? With or without Fast User Switching. Ever installed XP ?

many unixes don't use a wheel group.
--------- snip -----------

% grep wheel /etc/group
Debian linux

Playing on words ? Sure Linux isn't Unix, but then write Unix like so: Unix(tm) and i will know.

The first user is NOT and administrator, and any recent Unix
documentation will insist on the danger of running as root(admin). Unix
keeps the admin account well separated from the user account, which MS

That's simply false. Windows has several groups. By default users are in the "USERS" group, *not* the ADMINISTRATORS group.

It might make sense if you actually had knowledge of an OS before you criticize it.

Please proove ur point and run IIS from an unpriviledged account.

Please install a proper unix, create 2 accounts and try to
read the home directory of the second user from the first.

Please do the same in Windows. Here's a hint. You'll get the same results.

2) "After all, they don;t need to know" . " You're on a need to know
basis job"
Do MS really think the users are stupid ?

Probably. Otherwise they wouldn't have those stupid warnings popup every time you try to delete something. Are you SURE you want to do this???? Yes, damn it!!

[snipped the rant]

Lets not hide from ourselves whats needed from MS to reach modern world
a complete rewrite, and a ditch of old Dos base and the 20 years old
legacy code.

Oh baloney. Learn a little more about the OS before you make assumptions that make you look ignorant.

Aside from the default permissions, you can also granularly apply privileges in many ways. For example, by default USERS have Read & Execute, List Folder Contents and Read access to the Windows folder, its contents and all it's subfolders. In addition, there are fourteen (14) separate rights that can be explicity granted or denied to them at that level only or to all subfolders as well, to files only, to subfolders only, to subfolders *and* files only, etc., etc.

I ahve admined nt4 boxes, and before being insulting, u should maybe look up again and re read. I do know nt ways, and it is just a pale implementation of permissions. They perfected it in 2003 but still has much to be desired. Took them long enuf to get user roles / id werking.

I'm not Windows fan, but the least you can do is learn the subject before you claim expert status and presume to preach to others.

While we're lecturing the unwashed, would you mind trimming your replies? Who needs six levels of FD disclaimers?

Its un moderated, live with it.

Paul Schmehl (pauls () utdallas edu)
Adjunct Information Security Officer
The University of Texas at Dallas
AVIEN Founding Member

Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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