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Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal.
From: Bart.Lansing () kohls com
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:21:01 -0500


Mary, please don't mangle my comments like that...I did not say we are 
wired to be bad.  I said nothing like that at all.  Point in fact, I said:


There is no "moral breakdown", as humankind is not fundamentally moral. 

Morals are learned and enforced and reinforced...not inherited or 
magically imbued. 

 We are not pre-wired with morals, and that's not at all saying "...we are 
somehow wired to be bad.."  (I've read a lot of your posts, Mary...thought 
you were more attentive than that).   We are amoral, not immoral, at 
birth...what morals and behaviors and social codes we have, we are taught. 
 "Thou shalt not kill" is not a genetically coded behavior...it is 
learned.  (And by the way...the why behind "Thou shalt not kill" is "Or 
you will roast in hell for eternity/be obliterated by your local diety of 
choice",  which does not sound like positive reinforcement to me...does it 
to you?)

I did not, ever, say that we are wired to be bad...since good and bad 
don't exist for us until someone else teaches us the concepts. 

I also did not say "...that only negative consequences change it..."  What 
I said was:

...people cannot be made to change, therefore laws are in place 
to deter unwanted behaviors...and failing that, to punish those who are 

not deterred.  Behavior modification through negative reinforcements 
works...always has, most likely always will.


Either you have never parented or you did not care if your child stuck 
his/her hand on a hot stove burner (If you told your child "Don't do that 
or you will be burned!" you just used negative reinforcement).  Positive 
reinforcement "only" reinforces/rewards desired  behaviors (that "only" 
does not imply that this is a little deal...rewarding desired behaviors is 
a fine thing)...it does not change undesired behaviors.  Negative 
reinforcement is a vehicle of behavioral change.  Think about it, and then 
give me an example of using positive reinforcement to effect change, 
without it coming off as bribery; i.e. "If you stop doing XXX I'll give 
you YYY".  That method of behavior modification ultimately tends to breed 
extortionists, don't you think? 

Anyway, this is Full Disclosure, not Psychology Today...I just dislike 
being misquoted...

cheers

Bart Lansing
Manager, Desktop Services
Kohl's IT


full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com wrote on 10/08/2004 06:01:35 PM:

Judicious snips...

And I don't agree with the rather cynical outlook of one poster who 
claims
we are somehow wired to be bad and that only negative consequences 
change
it. Sounds rather like a handly rationalization to me.



-- Mary

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Smith" <stfunub () gmail com>
To: "Banta, Will" <will.banta () broadwing com>
Cc: "morning_wood" <se_cur_ity () hotmail com>;
<full-disclosure () lists netsys com>
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Hacking into private files, my credit 
card
purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is 
trespassing
and criminal.


Am i the only one concerned at the childish behavious on these mailing
lists?
I've not been reading for so long, but in my second or third email to
these lists i've been told that someone 'doesn't care' about me and my
'weak brain'.
And now this 'OK. You're wrong.' ?
Is this neccesary?
I beleive Morning_Wood raises some good points.


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