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Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal.
From: "Mary Landesman" <mlande () bellsouth net>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:51:23 -0400

You are correct. I did not read your post carefully enough and responded to
my (mis) interpretation of your intent rather than the words themselves. My

-- Mary

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Bart.Lansing () kohls com>
To: "Mary Landesman" <mlande () bellsouth net>
Cc: <full-disclosure () lists netsys com>;
<full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Hacking into private files, my credit card
purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing
and criminal.

Mary, please don't mangle my comments like that...I did not say we are
wired to be bad.  I said nothing like that at all.  Point in fact, I said:

There is no "moral breakdown", as humankind is not fundamentally moral.

Morals are learned and enforced and reinforced...not inherited or
magically imbued.

 We are not pre-wired with morals, and that's not at all saying "...we are
somehow wired to be bad.."  (I've read a lot of your posts, Mary...thought
you were more attentive than that).   We are amoral, not immoral, at
birth...what morals and behaviors and social codes we have, we are taught.
 "Thou shalt not kill" is not a genetically coded behavior...it is
learned.  (And by the way...the why behind "Thou shalt not kill" is "Or
you will roast in hell for eternity/be obliterated by your local diety of
choice",  which does not sound like positive reinforcement to me...does it
to you?)

I did not, ever, say that we are wired to be bad...since good and bad
don't exist for us until someone else teaches us the concepts.

I also did not say "...that only negative consequences change it..."  What
I said was:

...people cannot be made to change, therefore laws are in place
to deter unwanted behaviors...and failing that, to punish those who are

not deterred.  Behavior modification through negative reinforcements
works...always has, most likely always will.

Either you have never parented or you did not care if your child stuck
his/her hand on a hot stove burner (If you told your child "Don't do that
or you will be burned!" you just used negative reinforcement).  Positive
reinforcement "only" reinforces/rewards desired  behaviors (that "only"
does not imply that this is a little deal...rewarding desired behaviors is
a fine thing)...it does not change undesired behaviors.  Negative
reinforcement is a vehicle of behavioral change.  Think about it, and then
give me an example of using positive reinforcement to effect change,
without it coming off as bribery; i.e. "If you stop doing XXX I'll give
you YYY".  That method of behavior modification ultimately tends to breed
extortionists, don't you think?

Anyway, this is Full Disclosure, not Psychology Today...I just dislike
being misquoted...


Bart Lansing
Manager, Desktop Services
Kohl's IT

Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
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