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Re: Hacking into private files, my credit card purchases, personal correspondence or anything that is mine is trespassing and criminal.
From: Jesse Valentin <jessevalentin () yahoo com>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:10:27 -0700 (PDT)

Hey there Bart,


Sorry I’m getting back to this so late.


Thanks for the post. You mentioned a few things however that were not accurate with regard to my original note.

You wrote: “Please don't ever depend on the nature of man changing in order to have safety and security.”

 Please understand, I do not depend on man changing his nature in order to have security. My point was that the issues 
we see in the world are to be expected due to the sorry social condition in which we currently live.


You also distorted my meaning when you stated that “Laws are necessary for exactly the reasons you say they are 
useless”. I was not stating that “laws” in general are without purpose as you incorrectly insinuated. Instead I was 
pointing out that the present legal foundation on which our society is built is unfortunately lacking in many ways and 
this situation contributes to the disorder that is seen on many levels of human interaction.

You went on to state that “Behavior modification through negative reinforcement works...always has, most likely always 
will”. Now without getting into a sociological debate, I feel that while this statement is accurate to a degree, 
present day conditions as well as historical record show that this approach by far is simply not enough.

 One point you brought up in your post was “There is no "moral breakdown", as humankind is not fundamentally moral. ”. 

 Although I find your perspective interesting, I do feel this statement is also incorrect. With this in mind, consider 
what the Los Angeles News stated as early as March 29, 1941: “What is happening to us is essentially a moral collapse. 
The gap between what we pretend to believe and what we do in practice has constantly been widening. . . “

  “Moral Collapse” – hmmm doesn’t that remind you of a … breakdown?

Just some thoughts. Sorry, didn’t want to steer this away from security issues, but you know how it is when you’re 
misquoted. J


Bart.Lansing () kohls com wrote:

Jesse, et al...

"...expect to see an ongoing barrage on injustices..."

This has been ongoing since Cain slew Abel...or if you like, since Og 
clubbed Ooog outside his cave and dragged his cavewoman off by her hair. 
Please don't ever depend on the nature of man changing in order to have 
safety and security. Those things are only accomplished via social 
contracts called, you guessed it, laws. 

There is no "moral breakdown", as humankind is not fundamentally moral. 
Morals are learned and enforced and reinforced...not inherited or 
magically imbued. Laws are necessary for exactly the reasons you say they 
are useless...people cannot be made to change, therefore laws are in place 
to deter unwanted behaviors...and failing that, to punish those who are 
not detered. Behavior modification through negative reinfirecement 
works...always has, most likely always will.

Bart Lansing
Manager, Desktop Services
Kohl's IT

full-disclosure-admin () lists netsys com wrote on 10/08/2004 10:30:17 AM:

Hey Jan,

I totally hear your frustration. This is unfortunately a very big 
issue that we deal with in society on a day to day basis. The "every
man for himself" mentality has truly pervaded every level of human 

As I'm sure you are aware, this is unfortunately due to a moral 
breakdown affecting human society and culture that is being seen all
over the planet. No matter how many laws are passed or how many 
policies are written, they are pretty much useless as they are not 
capable of changing people. The type of solution you are talking of 
requires a far greater change than just penalties for actions or 
stronger laws. One of the main things is that people's hearts and 
mental inclinations need to change... until this is accomplished you
can expect to see an ongoing barrage of injustices...

Big issues out there!

Thanks for the post.

Jesse Valentin
Information Security Engineer

"Clairmont, Jan M" wrote: 

I just don't understand people who think by using some cheap trick they
get into my files or website and hack them, that they have no 
personal responsibility.
It's insane to think and criminal that anything you can get into is fair 

Just because I have a cheap lock you can break does not make 
invading my home or personal property yours. Eh gods man, how does 
this type of idiotic logic prevail, 
just becasue I lost my wallet does not constitute your right to use my 
card, atm card and personal information for your enrichment. Because
you can get into
some sieve unsecured systems gives you the right to exploit or rape 
a persons bank account, steal their identity and generally destroy 
someone's life.

I have found a number of wallets and purses and returned them intact
to the rightful
owners, as I have done with computer systems that! my friends, 
neightbors and
clients have used with vulnerablilties or virii. Sometimes they 
didn't even know I helped or fixed something. You know why because I
respect the privacy and property of others. And if you don't, you 
deserve the indignation and the handcuffs they put on you 
when they drag you down to chinatown, baby.

Compute Fair, Compute Fun, Compute secure
Jan Clairmont Paladin of Security, Take no Prisoners!
Unix Security Support/Consultant

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