Home page logo

fulldisclosure logo Full Disclosure mailing list archives

Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle
From: Timo Schoeler <timo () riscworks net>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:51:48 +0100


1. As I understand, the monitoring is not as wide as you described.

2. Even if, it is there, it is for Public good. It is to protect you

What terrorism? There was not a *single* death caused by 'terrorists'
in Germany for about thirty years now.

There were a few 'incidents' in the last two years trying to justify
this spying on the people, and they were all very bad fakes -- obvious

Yes, this amounts to big brother is watching, but many times,
that is essential. Remember USA 9/11/2001,

Yeah, nice inside job. 

London 7/7/2006,

First, this also could have been a fake. We'll never know. But I can
give you one very good advice: Alwas ask the question the old romans
also asked themselves, 'cui bono?', 'to whose benefit'.

When you ask this question and you're looking at the world that changed
since 1989/90, when the soviet union and several other countries
disappeared, then you see that this huge amount of incidents etc. is
far away from being coincidence. It is *planned*. Some people know that
it's not possible to go on like this forever, and they try to get most
out of it.

Second, London is the city with the highest density of CCTVs installed
and active, and already was 7/7/2006. Why did it happen anyways?
Why did this 'terror' attacks earlier this year happen? Catch my draft?

Third, there was this incident when passengers were caught because they
wanted 'to blow an airplane' (using some liquid). Funnily, when the
media got their stories, all of those imprisoned could walk away
because there was nothing. Furthermore, those dangerous terrorists
didn't even have *tickets* for that flight. How to get onboard without
raising suspicion? Of course, having no ticket available. Geees!

(many many incidents).

India is a complete different story and has nothing to do with
'democracy in danger' in the western countries.

Have trust in your government.

Nowadays, 'governments' are not the entities they were defined as
earlier in history. One can prove almost *any* government of western
countries as being a fascist one (see work of Naomi Wolf [0]). This is
rather unfortunate, but backs the impression that they (the 'elite', as
they call themselves) knows that this game is happening to end soon.

I believe, German
government machinery is reasonable efficient and honest.

Yes, one could see this very well in WWII, when millions of jews were
murdered highly efficiently.

Back then, in the years before 1933, *exactly* the same happened as

* One party rule (today there's two parties, but they don't behave

* Spying on people;

* The fusioning of police, military, and secret service (after WWII it
was defined in Germany's constitution that never again those services
are allowed to work together as it was back then);

* creating FUD; back then, it was the jews; nowadays, it's moslems and

This leads to so 'funny' stories like people getting arrested for
nothing, just because they know terms like 'gentrification'...

communication transactions
are logged, what is the harm?

Do you announce when you go to the bathroom, make love to your GF/wife,
brush your teeth, eat, drink, sleep, etc?

In case of any incident, how will the
government investigate? If you are a security professional, don't you
your client for all this like audit logs etc.

Huh? It's about civil rights. *Human* rights, not about the need to
obfuscate. The latter shouldn't be necessary in a *democracy* (what
Germany is *not*, at least not compared to the original meaning of this

3. Even if, you need to protest, please do. This is your right.

At the moment, yes, but for how long?

this is
not the way to protest.


Even if you say that technically you are not
breaking any law, the difference between you and a law breaker is very
If you want to protect, use democratic methods. Write about it in
print media.

They are under control. The constitution of Germany states 'Eine Zensur
findet nicht statt.' [1], that there's nothing like censorship. But
this is just not true. 

Use electronic media to mobilise opinion. Create Blogs.
Send e-mails.

Like in china? In Germany there *are* servers that are taken off the
net. Censorship.

Lobby with MPs (members of Bundestag).

Senseless. Have a look at the protocol of Friday's decision. There were
politicians in the media that afterwards said that they felt very bad
about giving their vote for this, but they still did. Guess why...

If your ideas will appeal to
many will raise voice. 

No, you have to raise voices of *german* people. That is almost
impossible. Believe me, I'm a politically active person in Germany.

(But again, have a look at the history books. And this is what makes
the things that dangerous that happen here. The majority of people
just don't care!)

Ultimately, law is manifestation of social
aspirations for social good. As I understand, Germany (Deutschland)
is a vibrant democracy and not a dictatorship or oppressive state.

It is the latter one. Re-read what you know about democracy, especially
when it was first 'invented' (no, it was not the US), then compare.

Germany is on the best way into an *official* dictatorship;
inofficially it already is, as there's a bunch of people from the
economy that make the law. It's the same for the whole EU as an entity
itself, btw. Have you ever been to Bruxelles? :)

Further, ask the background - why this law was necessary? In a
democracy, laws are made after careful and well defined process. Ask
for the details of the process.

Have a look at the German Parliament. Decisions are made as they are
made in the European Parliament -- at 4 a.m. when there's only 23
people (when 623 should attend the session), and that's it. Thirty
years ago, there were *real* politicians in the parliament, there was
*discussion*. This is long ago. Nowadays those guys appear to drop
their vote for or against a thing other guys told them to.

4. If you can cite some incidents of misuse / oppression by the
government machinery of any other law, you can quote that in venting
your feelings / opinion.

This is my personal opinion. You are free to take your own decision.
Even if, you may curse me, I have no problem. You and me both live in
and vibrant democracies. Both are counted amongst top 5 democracies
in the world.

Who made this list? People selling cars don't tell you that cars kill
the planet, hurt people, and make you sick (fat, heart-sick, etc), do

I feel, it is my democratic right to express my
opinion, even if you
do not subscribe to it.

I am from India. We have been victims of many terrorist attacks. 

Rakesh, your terrorists are other terrorists than those invented here.

can say that if state is watching the traffic (net, phone, road,
human, etc.) for public good with honesty, it is good for public.

Further, you said "This is madness for various apparent reasons". I
fail to
understand - what are the various apparent reasons? can you describe
a few of these apparent reasons.

Rakesh Goyal

Best regards,


[0] -- http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

[1] -- http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/5.html

Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/

  By Date           By Thread  

Current thread:
[ Nmap | Sec Tools | Mailing Lists | Site News | About/Contact | Advertising | Privacy ]