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Re: [inbox] Re: Supporters urge halt to hacker's, extradition to US
From: "James Matthews" <nytrokiss () gmail com>
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:30:50 -0700

When you break into a system using an exploit there is a chance that the
shellcode will crash the system.

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Exibar <exibar () thelair com> wrote:

 McKinnon did cause damage:

"The charges include one incident - shortly after the attacks on September
11 2001 - which brought down a network of 300 computers at the Earle naval
weapons station. Another raid apparently left 2,000 government machines in
Washington inoperable."

 A message left by him on a system:

"As part of his quest he left this message on an Army computer in 2002:
"U.S. foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these
days.... It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on
September 11 last year ... I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the
highest levels."
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/uk-hacker-gary.html  (and many
other sources with the same message)

 Sure sounds like a criminal that knows what he's doing, and is doing it
willfully, doesn't it?

 Oh yah, and he's really only facing a fine and up to 10 years of prison
time in the US...  I guess things really are different translating to the
metric system in the UK...

 Wondering what the maximum term in the UK is for the same crime?  Hold on
to your seat...
LIFE IN PRISON (see next paragraph)

"As the Divisional Court itself pointed out (at para 34), the gravity of
offences alleged against the appellant should not be understated: the
equivalent domestic offences include an offence under section 12 of the
Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 for which the maximum sentence is
life imprisonment."

  That link is a link to the very court brief itself on McKinnin's appeal
in the UK...

  McKinnon should face the charges of computer crime that he's facing.  He
should, and will, be tried, either in the US or in the UK.  But, keep in
mind that it is the UK that will extradite him, and it is the UK that has
ruled that he *should* be extradited for his crimes....

Ok, I'm done now :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk
[mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk] On Behalf Of Kyrian
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:31 AM
To: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk
Subject: [inbox] Re: [Full-disclosure] Supporters urge halt to
hacker's,extradition to US

full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk wrote:
"American officials involved in this case have stated that they want
to see him 'fry'."-- BBC.

[IANAL, correct me if I'm wrong, etc, but...]

Yes, that's a large part of the problem.

That courts *can* be bought (usually indirectly via already-bought
officials, or more nasty methods), and that government officials have
said the above makes it worse still.

The thought that US law was apparently changed from requiring damage to
systems to get a conviction to not requiring such damage, very recently,
is another problem.

The fact that neither the US or the UK (as far as I'm aware) actually
has a sane enough legal framework for this sort of thing, or enough
police (anyonewho's dealt with the UK's former "High Tech Crime Unit"
will know this), judges (there are many examples of judges being "out of
touch" in their rulings), etc. who are actually aware enough of the
underlying technology to deal with it sensibly is another.

I agree with whoever said that people should be extradited to the
country in which they caused damage, but not under circumstances like
these, and not when there is no agreed standard of law between the
country the person would be extradited from, and the one they would go to.

In the UK it still requires damage to be done for it to be a criminal
offense, and that does not seem set to change.

That it is possible to cause damage to (badly managed) systems by doing
absolutely nothing in a lot of circumstances (as I am finding right
now), that logs can be faked, and that the dividing line between probes
versus actual hacking attempts is at times a very narrow one, there is
plenty of reason not to agree extradite Gary.

That he's "autistic" is probably neither here nor there, I'm afraid, as
it seems to be very common for people involved in computing the be
somewhere high on the autistic spectrum (even if they are not
'officially' autistic). I have taken the test. I'm not telling, but I
know what I'm talking about.

So, I shall be there, I won't be shouting or chanting, but I will be
there. I hope that the event is not hijacked by another purpose, and
that I do not get shot by the armed police at the US Embassy there (it
is a scarey looking place, which puts me on edge whenever I'm near).
Strangely I also find myself wondering if the staff there are paying the
London congestion charge yet, rather than ignoring it...?

Just my 2c, or so.


Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian&#64;ore.org WWW: http://kyrian.ore.org/
Linux/Security <http://kyrian.ore.org/Linux/Security> Contractor/LAMP
Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/
                DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/

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Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/


Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/

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