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Re: VPN providers and any providers in general...
From: Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 12:56:00 +0100

True, I know some hackers who really apply the "Ballmers Peak" (
http://xkcd.com/323/) principle... They simply need to dry up :)

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:51 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:

Well, statistics show that most crime is done on some form of drug, and
drug addiction is probably about 90% of most major crime evens, so, i think
this gives people of the IT nature, a much higher chance, staitstically
speaking, it would be of more benfit to simply rehab them, rather than make
them a possible statistic of the 'rotation' count most harder crims have.
ok,. im out!
xd



On 3 October 2011 22:38, Darren Martyn <d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com>wrote:

Well, thanks for the logical response :)

Many people want these "evil hackers" locked up and such, but doing so
will only achieve the folowing (in my opinion):
A: Cost money.
B: Turn them into a more hardened criminal.
C: Cost the community a useful person who could be beneficial to them.

Consider that Davis is 18, Cleary only 19, and other people arrested are
about the same age. What the law enforcement and judicial bodies dealing
with them must realize is that they are dealing with intelligent young
people, who simply chose the wrong path. What they need is not a prison
stay, but some rehabilitative treatment, perhaps councilling to help them
find the right path, and a better sense of morality.

Hell, in some cases the mere arrest itself scared people straight. Having
a bloody SWAT team blow the bloody doors off is enough to reangline* most
young mens moral compass!

Of course, jailing them can be used to "send a message" that "this is not
acceptable" and such, but that has *less* merit than *using* them for good.
All one does by sending a message is make those still out there feel more
persecuted, and persecuted people lash out, doing more damage, and the cycle
continues.

*This computers spellcheck is not working, it wants to use Cyrillic!

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:28 PM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:

Ok.. my final posts on this matter i think... and opinons,


(No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather
than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming
fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and
whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them).

It does outweigh, for, each time a perso is jailed it costs you, me, and
anyone wh works, money.
We can re3duce the harm, by education and counselling. Especially forced
hours per-week basis, of counselling with a qualified psych, possibly before
release even better.
I think the IQ level is higher, therfore, there is a 'smarter' chance of
it happening, asmuch as theyre hacking, theyre also gaining tremendus
knoledge, many do go into IT sec, we just cannot see those cases really..and
when we do, theyre usually yrs after the thing has happened, but, i could
think of a few EU based guys who are hapily workin for huge co's, making
massive cash, evven maker of Morphine, HolyFather, admittedly went into Av,
and made rootkits for years.
So, for sure, why put them in jail, it is just going to 'harden' , like
anyone will when ones back is up against the wall, as it will be in jail
ofc.
I think rehab, rather than retalliate.

Bedtme here for me :)
I enjoy your posts, and i think the whole topic has much merit in these
lists, other than just about a cpl of websites, pople forget that it is
still about, the freedom to even, do a simple pentest , really thats the
crux of it.

So, i think,some method used by psychology, could very easily work,
especially because, these guys are usually VERY smart, and, the can still be
'saved' unlike some hardened armed-robber/burglar...
The chance of rehab, is specially high because of the intellectual
platform it takes  just to be at a simple or mediate level of the scale, in
terms of 'hacking' in hgeneral.
cheers,
xd




On 3 October 2011 22:17, Darren Martyn <
d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com> wrote:

Thanks for the input, I will be putting this as a debate soon for thew
Law Society in the Uni I attend, to see what the legal guys think.

The issue in the example is not fraud, but damage done to the servers
(lets assume root/deface) and perhaps leaking of stolen data - the case I am
using as an example would be, for example, the "LulzSec" breaches. How hard
would they get f*cked on an international scale if arrested? How many
countries will try extradite them?

In my opinion, they should be simply charged, tried and convicted in
their country of residence and be done with it - there is no benefit to
society as a whole to be gained from hanging them three or four times a
piece, as I reckon given a good shock and such, they come out with a
newfound respect for authority and may even be of some benefit to the
security community and the community as a whole. Locking them up merely
turns them further toward criminal lives - and remember, all hackers *have*
potential to do good as well as evil, it is just a matter of their choice.
Given a *shove* toward the right decision is more beneficial in the end.

"Discuss"...

(No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather
than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming
fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and
whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them).

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:34 AM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:

Could just lok at the recent david cecil case here in .au.
It does say alot, because he did breach some bigger networks.. and he
was committing 'smaller' scale fraud but, still fraud, however, his main
problem was what he did to a governemnt site, wich was deface it for
personal gain, not profit.
It is the latest case wich would be valid of this.
still.. intresting infos... good stuff.
xd


On 3 October 2011 19:16, Darren Martyn <
d.martyn.fulldisclosure () gmail com> wrote:

Going back to my own example, say all three are first world countries,
and A and C are in the EU whilst B is the US. All nations involved have good
diplomatic relations and preexisting extradition treaties, and to add
interest to it, lets say the LEO in B and C helped the investigation. The
criomes would be non-financial, but say, large scale hacks and such. I will
use Jake Davis's case as a "canary case" for this though...

On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 12:31 AM, xD 0x41 <secn3t () gmail com> wrote:

Ah, the legend of the mailing-list himself, has spoken.
not knowing you, for all i have seen, your a pathetic sack of
rubbish, and really, what we are discussing, if you had ANY clue, wich obv
dont, is simply how far our own freedom is going.
You are an idiot.
Have a nice day.
xd



On 2 October 2011 08:45, andrew.wallace <
andrew.wallace () rocketmail com> wrote:

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:50 AM,  <Valdis.Kletnieks () vt edu> wrote:
On Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:16:11 +1000, xD 0x41 said:

As you also said, murder is a no brainer in any place...well,
maybe not iraq
or afghanistan just yet :P lol..

Iraq, for all its problems, is still a place with a somewhat
functional
judicial system. The court system may be broken, but you in
general *will* at
least appear in a courtroom with a judge and be pronounced guilty
before you're
punished.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of  totally failed
states such as
Somalia, Sudan, or the contested parts of Afghanistan, where you
can't be tried
for murder because there isn't a court to try you *in*.


Have you not grown old of talking to children on mailing lists?

---

Andrew Wallace

Independent consultant

www.n3td3v.org.uk



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_______________________________________________
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html
Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/

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