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Re: MCI and SprintLink are partitioned (fwd)
From: hwb () upeksa sdsc edu (Hans-Werner Braun)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 95 10:56:24 PDT

 . are all three (four?) NAPs really being used 
   Yes.  for some value of "used".
That answer is close to meaningless. Please give me your metric.

      Since they are neutral exchanges, w/o policy, I can only 
      speak for for my project. I can't speak for any of the 
      other sites that are attached.  The RA has active peering
      sessions at all the NAPS.  We do not have active peering
      sessions with some of the NSP's which are receiving NSF
      funding through the old regionals.

      What is your definition of used?

Operational traffic with real users crossing the NAP. I don't care (in
this context) whether the RA has active peering sessions. That's
network management, not use.

 . Is there any evidence that the NAPs are really backing each other
   up? 
   Not sure this is possible.  Perhaps the better question is,
   are providers using the NAPs to back each other up.

Let me rephrase. How is the NSF programmatic goal being met of creating
three NAPs for redundancy purposes to avoid compartmentalization of
the U.S. R&E portion of the Internet, and how is that being verified?

      That question can't be answered by the NAP operators, since
      they don't monitor traffic. You have to ask the NSP's.

I was/am asking NANOG. Was it your understanding that I sent a personal
message to you?

 . do we have some regular examples from *any* site A initiating a
   connection from A to B, A to C, and A to D, where the three are
   verifiably (via traceroute, I guess) would traverse different NAPs
   (and hopefully only one each)?
   Yes.

So, where are they? Say, can you give me two examples for such an
A-B/C/D scenario? One from SDSC, one from NSF. Your answers are a bit
too flippant to me. Sorry.

      Anywhere to WELL.COM  (via the PB NAP)

%upeksa[70]/usr/people/hwb 10:50: tr WELL.COM
traceroute to WELL.COM (206.15.64.10), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  tigerfish.sdsc.edu (132.249.22.11)  8 ms  8 ms  7 ms
 2  mobydick.cerf.net (198.17.46.153)  3 ms  3 ms  4 ms
 3  agis.sprint.ep.net (192.157.69.19)  69 ms  69 ms  69 ms
 4  trenton-T3.agis.net (204.130.243.49)  72 ms  72 ms  73 ms
 5  santaclara.agis.net (204.130.243.34)  83 ms  82 ms  81 ms
 6  * * *
 7  well.com (206.15.64.10)  90 ms *  87 ms
%upeksa[71]/usr/people/hwb 10:51: 

      Anywhere to NAP.NET   (via the AADS NAP)

%upeksa[71]/usr/people/hwb 10:51: tr nap.net
traceroute to nap.net (204.95.160.2), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  tigerfish.sdsc.edu (132.249.22.11)  7 ms  7 ms  7 ms
 2  mobydick.cerf.net (198.17.46.153)  10 ms  4 ms  8 ms
 3  longboard.cerf.net (198.17.46.152)  4 ms  5 ms  10 ms
 4  la-sd-ds3.cerf.net (134.24.115.200)  7 ms  7 ms  9 ms
 5  ucop-sf-ds3-smds.cerf.net (134.24.9.112)  25 ms  27 ms  29 ms
 6  sl-ana-3-S2/6-T1.sprintlink.net (144.228.73.81)  35 ms  36 ms  35 ms
 7  sl-ana-2-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.70.2)  89 ms  91 ms  90 ms
 8  sl-stk-6-H2/0-T3.sprintlink.net (144.228.10.25)  91 ms  94 ms  92 ms
 9  sl-stk-5-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.40.5)  97 ms  89 ms  91 ms
10  144.228.10.53 (144.228.10.53)  89 ms  89 ms  89 ms
11  sl-chi-5-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.50.5)  89 ms  92 ms  93 ms
12  sl-inetconn-1-S0-T1.sprintlink.net (144.228.55.114)  100 ms  101
ms  100 ms
13  beta.inc.net (204.95.160.2)  96 ms  100 ms  101 ms
%upeksa[72]/usr/people/hwb 10:51:

      Anywhere to CERF.NET  (via the Sprint NAP)

%upeksa[72]/usr/people/hwb 10:52: tr stanford.edu
traceroute to stanford.edu (36.56.0.151), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  tigerfish.sdsc.edu (132.249.22.11)  7 ms  8 ms  9 ms
 2  mobydick.cerf.net (198.17.46.153)  56 ms  4 ms  4 ms
 3  longboard.cerf.net (198.17.46.152)  6 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 4  la-sd-ds3.cerf.net (134.24.115.200)  7 ms  8 ms  8 ms
 5  ucop-sf-ds3-smds.cerf.net (134.24.9.112)  26 ms  30 ms  29 ms
 6  border3-hssi1-0.SanFrancisco.mci.net (149.20.64.9)  37 ms  29 ms 33 ms
 7  borderx1-fddi0-0.SanFrancisco.mci.net (204.70.2.164)  28 ms  29 ms 27 ms
 8  barrnet.SanFrancisco.mci.net (204.70.158.102)  35 ms  29 ms  33 ms
 9  su-tk.wr.bbnplanet.net (192.31.48.1)  31 ms  32 ms  30 ms
10  sunet-gateway.stanford.edu (198.31.10.1)  30 ms  29 ms  32 ms
11  Argus.Stanford.EDU (36.56.0.151)  32 ms  31 ms  33 ms
%upeksa[73]/usr/people/hwb 10:52: 

%upeksa[73]/usr/people/hwb 10:52: tr nsipo.nasa.gov
traceroute to nsipo.nasa.gov (128.102.32.20), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  tigerfish.sdsc.edu (132.249.22.11)  7 ms  7 ms  7 ms
 2  mobydick.cerf.net (198.17.46.153)  4 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 3  sl-pen-2-F4/0.sprintlink.net (192.157.69.9)  75 ms  235 ms  71 ms
 4  sl-chi-3-H2/0-T3.sprintlink.net (144.228.10.38)  95 ms  95 ms  95 ms
 5  sl-chi-6-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.50.6)  95 ms  95 ms  95 ms
 6  144.228.10.54 (144.228.10.54)  134 ms  134 ms  134 ms
 7  icm-fix-w-H2/0-T3.icp.net (144.228.10.22)  137 ms  140 ms  137 ms
 8  arc-nas-gw.arc.nasa.gov (192.203.230.3)  138 ms  139 ms  136 ms
 9  nsipo.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.32.20)  138 ms  137 ms  137 ms
%upeksa[74]/usr/people/hwb 10:53: 

      Of course your query presumes symetric routing, which is 
      the exception rather than the rule these days.


 . Are there routing stability reports accessible online from the RA
   (or whoever else feels responsible for this) that graph fluctuations
   at the NAPs, including correlation among them? What are the quality
   metrics for routing stability?
   Being defined.

To be publicly discussed, finished, and available by ...?

      Check the RPS schedule w/in IETF.

 . Do all the NAPs provide online statistics?
   No.

Why not? Will that change? My understanding is that the NAP service
providers have contractual obligations for some statistics. I know there
is disagreement about what stats are appropriate, but is not there a
contractual requirement for at least some baseline?

      I don't think so.  

 . Are the NAP and RA regular reports to NSF publicly (hopefully via
   the Web) available?
   http://info.ra.net/papers  have the annual report/plan papers

Are there any more reporting requirements (quarterly? Monthly?).
Waiting a year per report in such a changing environment strikes me as
a bit long.

      There are quarterly reports, which are not yet online.  
      It's a good suggestion and I'll investigate.

If I wanted a comprehensive snapshot of the current state of the
NAP-union, where/how would I get it.

      Not enough info.  
      You can dump the in-addr zones to discover who has been assigned
      an IP address
      You can see who has signed an MPLA, if they exist.
      You can check the CERFnet MAP
      You can check out http://info.ra.net/div7/ra/ep.html

      All of these have different viewpoints on the "NAP-union"
      and none have what I think you want.

Where can I find mapping information from the in-addr zones to
attributes like service providers, or even simple things like
countries (that uses a consistent data base)?

--bill


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