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Have you ever heard of a dropbox? Would you like several tens of thousands
of examples?

We're not talking about drop boxes.  We're talking about relay abuse.

The 'rest of us' have a traditional venue, and that is asking politely
the ISP in a documented email complaint. How many complaints did you sent
us? We're not in China, you know...

What difference does the number of complaints I send you make?  RSS
subscribers have decided to not allow any mail from hosts listed on RSS.
There is proof on the RSS website that your mail server is an open relay
and has relayed spam.

You have 2 choices.
1) close your open relay
2) deal with the fact that some people don't want mail from your server.

certainly not because you say so. Not to mention that all instances of 
abuse can be traced from logs to someone's ip, and there is a venue of
complaint with the abuser's provider. We have a valid reason for doing 
so: locking our servers would prevent our customers from roaming, and we 
would also lose a good part of our non-local client base, some of them
subscribed since 1995, who couldn't make full use of their accounts

Absolute rubbish.

No kidding? Prove it is so. I think those arguments are rather valid.

Closing an open relay has nothing to do with stopping your non-local clients
from roaming and still using your relay.  SMTP AUTH, pop-before-smtp, VPN,
ssh tunnel  are just 4 options off the top of my head.

Uhhh... so how do you propose that relays are tested to make sure they're
closed before being removed from the database?

This is the very thing they considered abusive just a few months ago.

No it isn't.  Once your server is listed in RSS, the only time MAPS will 
try and relaytest you is if you ask them to remove you.

Wasn't it MAPS that blocked ORBS for scanning Abovenet's ports in the 
first place? So now they took their rival's worst rules and made it their 
own. Now it's my turn to say absolute rubbish.

proactive scanning is a completely different ballgame to reactive testing
on your request.

Could you be more clueless? 

That's just about what I was going to ask you. This is not about the 
merits of some technological implementation over another. It is about
basic rights and freedoms shamelessly trampled upon by those that can
thump their chests the loudest and have Daddy Warbucks bankroll their
operation. Say you fall out of grace with the 'in' crowd tomorrow, could 
it be your turn?

Oh, I'm constantly falling in and out of ORBS and peoples killfiles.
Do I particularly care?  Nope... people have a right to block whatever traffic
they want from their machines.

ORBS is a foreign entity. Out of reach. Vixie is ante portas. American, like

So, I still don't see you complaining about being listed in ORBS (which you

you and me. Blackmailing American providers, breaking state and federal laws 

I'm not American, and I resent you implying that I am (as would most
Exactly what state and federal laws are MAPS breaking?

with impunity. People that subscribe to the blackhole lists probably have no
idea who in particular they are blocking or to what extent. Or even why.

Uhh, sure they do.  They're blocking people who meet the criteria for being
in that list.

If you want to whine some more, news.admin.net-abuse.email is over there ->
and spam-l is that way <-

And you, John Payne, are here. And clearly on the side of the network
operator that's deliberately destroying the connectivity of other networks.
This problem won't just go away, as much as you want it swept under the

I'm in both those places (and more) as well.  If you want to stalk me at
least do others the favour of doing it where your whines stand a chance of
being ontopic... and if you're really lucky you might pick up a friend or
two on the way.

Your mail server bounces my messages. Have you thought of that one yet?

Of course, you're mailing me from an open relay.  And yet I'm still replying
to this post.  Oh wait, maybe its coming through the mailing list that you
persist in copying  *duh*

I'm not stalking you, I'm simply responding to your comments. And if I 
need a friend, I'd rather buy a dog. I'll name him Lucky.

Too many jokes ... can't decide which to use

Last mail from me to nanog in this thread.

John Payne      http://www.sackheads.org/jpayne/    john () sackheads org
http://www.sackheads.org/uce/                    Fax: +44 870 0547954
        To send me mail, use the address in the From: header

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