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Re: Stealth Blocking
From: Robert Sharp <rsharp () appliedtheory com>
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:36:15 -0400


OK Let me start again.  Lets go over some assumptions I made the first time that
obviously need to be restated.

1)  MAPS is a single self appoint law enforcement agency on the INTERNET.  Don't argue
until you hear me out.
a) MAPS creates the LAW, ie. no open relay

b) MAPS enforces the law and if you don't let them scan your machine you are
automatically assumed guilty.  Last I checked you needed a warrent and some proof to do
that, one easily forgable email header is not proof, in any universe.
    ie.  You create a mailserver, you don't allow MAPS to probe it, you are placed on
the list, by someone for nomination, because they think they were SPAMMED by you.  Were
they spammed? maybe, maybe not,  some people give out their email address on every
webform they can find and don't click the right check box ect and are placed on this
list.  Perhaps no ONE peice of spam has ever graced you machine, you are still guilty.
I have heard the arguement, how can maps tell if you are an open relay if you don't let
them scan.  Well you can't sorry, not everything in the world can go your way...  I
know this means in fact this arguement may not go my way.  Again I am willing to accept
it, but I will not buckle to comment of about my intellect and my lack of  being
informed as defeat.  It's simple not true.

c)MAPS sentences you.  You are placed on this LIST rather or not you are actually
generating spam.  This is a case of the ends justifiys the means.

A few netizens of NANOG don't understand my point.   The IDEA of maps isn't a bad
idea,  the idea of summarily judging a server and causing people who are using legimate
use problems is wrong.  I am not saying this is the norm, but it obiviously seems that
some people have questioned the MAPS "way" and have had it fall on deaf  MAP'S ears. I
don't like the IDEA of one person controlling the show.  I would rather have a
commitee, create the rules and see it enforced.

And if you use the MAPS list by your choice you are most definetly filtering out email
or traffic for people who are legitimate.  I know I have been filtered before.  MAPS is
using a very large hammer to kill a not so large bug.

In conclusion.  I HATE spam like everyone else.  I am just opposed to the solution that
seems to keep gaining acceptance.  And I have been asked by many other people on and
off list to spot expressing my obviously un informed views.  We let me say that asking,
rather demanding, I stop questioning this is dead wrong and if people didn't question
ideas we would still thing the earth was flat and we were the center of the universe.

Regards,

Rob



Valdis.Kletnieks () vt edu wrote:

On Wed, 23 May 2001 12:57:24 EDT, Robert Sharp said:
I like how MAPS is allowed to black hole your machines and their traffic.  But if
you deny them access to your network resource as they are you are automatically
assumed a spammer.  Wait you don't believe the same things we do, well you must
be the enemy.

I like how people like to rant without correlation to reality.  MAPS doesn't
blackhole your machines.  *I* blackhole your machines, based on *MY* decision
that if you're listed in MAPS, you're somebody I don't want to talk to.

Until you get that little detail straight, all your pissing and moaning
about MAPS is just that - pissing and moaning.  You can complain to MAPS
about being listed in their database, or you can complain to me about my
black holing your traffic because I found you listed in MAPS.  But you can't
complain about MAPS black holing you because they don't.

Using a clue for more than 20 seconds would show that MAPS *CANT* blackhole
your traffic themselves - if they did, HOW WOULD THEY TEST THAT YOU"D CLOSED
AN OPEN RELAY?
--
                                Valdis Kletnieks
                                Operating Systems Analyst
                                Virginia Tech

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