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Re: Strange CVE situation (at least one ID should come of this)
From: Kurt Seifried <kseifried () redhat com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:45:24 -0600

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On 10/29/2012 04:01 PM, Seth Arnold wrote:
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 02:01:24PM -0600, Kurt Seifried wrote:
So the first question I have is:

Q1) Do we need to audit software to prove that it is vulnerable?
Or is a statistical model enough? e.g. for PHP based web plugins,
not

I can't argue against the statistical model though it does rather
reduce the value of CVE as naming a specific vulnerability if they
start getting assigned for "eww this smells". There may be one
easily exploitable remote root flaw, there may be thousands of
reliability and information disclosure flaws, but hiding them all
under one "old and stinky" CVE doesn't feel like a significant
improvement.

Right but the problem is people aren't going to audit these stinky old
softwares to find CVE's, it's just not worth it mostly (what's the
incentive?).

We can assign a CVE with a description along the lines of
"Software X has not been actively maintained since release Y on
date Z. Software X is comprised of some stuff and built in
language Z which is known to commonly result in security flaws
(possibly list what kind, e.g. XSS/buffer overflow, etc.)." Maybe
start with a generic cut off date of say 5 years, and start
listing stuff as people find/notice them. If a program ever comes
back into maintenance and release a new version then the old CVE
would be there as a warning, and moving forwards people would be
able to make a much more informed choice.

To turn this on its head: qmail is an MTA (historically trouble)
written in C (historically trouble) and has not had a stable
release in 14 years (going strictly by Wikipedia).

But I do not think qmail deserves a CVE simply by this basis.

Hence the model. You take things into account like what language was
used, what the software does, it's track record, and the person/team
writing it and so on. In this case DJB has a pretty good track record,
so statistically speaking qmail is on the safer side and probably
doesn't need a CVE anytime soon. This isn't simple "if release >=5
years assign cve=true" =).

In effect this would be a blacklist/greylist of software, and by
using CVE it would be able to piggy back on the existing CVE
ecosystem (no better word to use), e.g. scanners would pick up
the old versions and

I'll grant that the CVE ecosystem is large and potentially very
powerful Force For Good, if deployed this way.

But when a consumer asks, "Is CVE-2013-F00F fixed?" and the answer
is "one guy put together three releases the last two months, fixing
one bug each", what _is_ the answer? "Yes" because there is a
responsive maintainer? Or "No" because probability dictates there
is likely more cruft yet to be found? Or "No" because two months is
insufficient data to draw a conclusion?

1) I suspect we'll be assigning this to very dead software so I think
it's highly unlikely that any updates ever got shipped.
2) if it happens it's basically "fixed" by the new release. but again
I seriously doubt we'll run into this anytime soon.

I realize this looks a LOT like feature creep with respect to
CVE, but I think it falls into the definition of a vulnerability
closely enough that it makes sense/won't result in a huge mess. I
can of course see

I like the specificity of today's CVE.

Me too. But this is already being heavily eroded by firms like Oracle:

http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=unknown

The reality is we already have hundreds of CVE entries with absolutely
no significant details other than a product name and version and vague
terms as whether or not Confidentiality/Accessibility/Integrity might
be affected.

I also think your idea has merit -- there is too much never-loved 
software out there -- but I don't think CVE is the correct lever
to attack it.

The problem is we have this ecosystem of CVE software from scanners
like Nessus to firms like iDefense/iSIGHT. Using CVE would quickly
give this old and problematic software problems high visibility, CVE is:

"International in scope and free for public use, CVE is a dictionary
of publicly known information security vulnerabilities and exposures."

Thanks



- -- 
Kurt Seifried Red Hat Security Response Team (SRT)
PGP: 0x5E267993 A90B F995 7350 148F 66BF 7554 160D 4553 5E26 7993

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