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Re: [PEN-TEST] Network Mapping (was Re: [PEN-TEST] How to "break into" the Pen-Testing field)
From: Carric Dooley <carric () COM2USA COM>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:55:28 -0400

I was referring specifically to the "autolayout" and limitations of OS
identification Mark.  If you find Visio either does not know what an object
is, or ID's it incorrectly, you would have to go back and hand-edit the
object special properties.  That information is NOT in the database (a
numeric code in the database tells visio which OS tag to use, and that info
appears to be inside the app... oh, no way to automate special properties
updates either, since that data is part of the vsd and not in the database
either).  The scanning is slow as hell too.  It reads every route in every
route table in every router as it discovers one at a time, and it's is
essentially impossible to limit the scope of the scan on a large network
(visio defines "one hop" as anything connected to the next routers down
stream it finds and there is not way to limit viso to "0" hops).

For a little network Visio is great, or if you have unlimited time, you can
do a large netowrk too, it will just take you about as long as it took to
build the pyramids to complete.  If you don't believe me, do an autolayout
for a network in the thousands of nodes and you will see what I mean.  =)



----- Original Message -----
From: "Teicher, Mark" <mark.teicher () NETWORKICE COM>
To: <PEN-TEST () SECURITYFOCUS COM>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [PEN-TEST] Network Mapping (was Re: [PEN-TEST] How to "break
into" the Pen-Testing field)


Actually Visio 2k is very cool in drawing very detailed network maps, and
if you have the 99.3 Network Equipment CD, a majority of the vendors have
provided very detailed icons for almost any network diagram.

One can spend hours putting these type of diagrams together.  The cool
thing is when you print on a plotter, they come out very nice.

The one caveat, if you print on a E size plotter, minor line weirdness can
cause some problems

/m

At 09:11 AM 9/12/00 -0400, batz wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Carric Dooley wrote:

:- I think the best tools for network mapping may be the free stuff (used
:Visio 2K Enterprise... extremely painful.  The SolarWinds stuff is nice
:though.  That with nmap, nlog can go a long way.  SolarWinds or
SuperScanner
:are extremely fast and can give you a host list to work with.  I would
maybe
:go back with those host lists and feed them to ISS Scanner, and nmap.
Maybe
:cybercop or nessus too.  Depends on what you are trying to accomplish.


Mapping the network, and making a network map require seperate tools.

Mapping is best done with nessus, firewalk, ping, traceroute, and
the route servers for network and transport layer.  tcpdump, arp and
anti-sniff for ethernet/link layer. Nmap is fine for session.
Application,
well, that's brute forcers, skriptz, whisker, and good old fashioned
kung-f00 with some genuine clue thrown in for good measure.

Some of the commercial tools do mapping AFAIK, and are useful for
comparing
your results to, but pointing tkined, visio 2k, or cheops at a network
probably won't give you a thorough picture. If you wouldn't bill your
clients for cookie cutter cybercop/iss/retina/nmap/nessus reports, why
would you bill them for the same from a network mapping package?

Making a network map; White board, and visio has cute widgets.

Each layer of the protocol stack is a map unto itself. Tool based
methodologies have the inherant problem of a top down approach.
They enumerate services and their associated vulnerabilities and
then induce that by there being a service and vuln, there must be a
host, which implies a network, and vaguely suggests an underlying
architecture.

Seems logical right? It is, but it's still wrong. It's consistant
with an inductive method, it's true within the scope of what is required
for a network to exist, but it's totally incomplete.



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