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RE: Ethical Hacking Training
From: "Kohlenberg, Toby" <toby.kohlenberg () intel com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:24:14 -0800

<all opinions are my own and in no way reflect the views of my employer>

There is one point that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this discussion
(though I may have missed it). Whether you think all your information
officers/consultants/technologists/wizards/priests should know how to
buffer overflows or not, a one-week "hacking course" isn't going to
them that. Years of experience as a programmer and system administrator
give them the background to be effective at it but all you are going to
get from
a one-week course is a review of the current tools and a glorified

People talk about knowing "how to hack" but that's a really big area. Do
mean having some general experience thinking like an attacker? Or do you
you want someone with experience writing Assembly for overflows? Or
SQL for insertion attacks? Or do you want someone who can social
engineer their
way into anywhere?

It may be harder to write a buffer overflow than to manage a firewall
but I'd 
argue that it's much harder to develop a complete information security
that is balanced and feasible for a company than it is to enumerate a
find a vulnerability and exploit it. And it's much harder to teach the
first task
than the second.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Shein [mailto:shoten () starpower net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: Ethical Hacking Training

As much as I think that it's valuable for security personnel to know how
their attackers think and operate, I think this particular analogy is
flawed.  Hacking is not part of the job, necessarily, any more than
is part of the programmers job in this example. I have known many
security officers who couldn't run an exploit (and never had), but who
really knew their stuff and put it to use in real-world environments.
It is
possible to know how to defend a network without knowing the details of
to break into it; you're defending against concepts, not keystrokes.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim,,, [mailto:tim () spang org] On Behalf Of Tim Gurney
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: Ethical Hacking Training

Mostly i lurk on thsi list, this this is a topic i feel 
strongly about.

Let me give you an example, would you employ someone to write 
code for a real time fly by wire system who had no experience 
of doing it ? NO!

So why employ a security officer who has no idea how to hack. 
If you dont know how to do it, you wont know how others do it 
and you wont know how to stop it.

you need to have "played the game" to know where to look, and 
how to read between the lines and have contacts in the 
underground groups.

Yes i am speaking from experience, i am a free lanse security 
consultant, and i have played the other side of the fence 
while at uni, and i dont trust any security specialist who 
hasnt done the same.


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