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RE: Pen Testing for investigators
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:40:11 +1000

I agree fully

There is no place in law enforcement or investigation for pen testing

Police are not trained in murder to stop it
Police training does not include the use of lock picks, arson or fraud

*** NO *** 5 day course will "teach you to think like a hacker". A D.
Phycology will rarely do this. Lots of people make lots of money
training pen testers. I am not stating that there is no place for
vulnerability tests, but that they are generally flawed in delivery and
should be a part of a larger project

The premise that you must be a thief to catch a thief is fundamentally


-----Original Message-----
From: Security Professional [mailto:redteamer () gmail com] 
Sent: 20 September 2005 10:32
To: pen-test () securityfocus com
Cc: ish () dolphtech com
Subject: Re: Pen Testing for investigators

    I changed the subject in my response because to be honest, I don't
think investigators, law enforcement officers, and the like need to
focus as much on pen testing, as they do with forensic analysis
(hardware and network), Intrusion analysis, law, etc.
    Traditionally, pen testing is left to a whole other group.  That
being said, it is still somewhat understandable that you would still
want to provide an overview of pen testing to broaden horizons.
    So, here is my opinion on a few courses and classes (most of which I
have taken and recommend):
1) Intrusion Detection Training and Packet Analysis - This to me is one
of the most important pieces of training if you are in the field
of incident handling or intrusion detection.    To me, there is one
class which stands up above the rest and that is the SANS Track 3
course.  Now, opinions aside on what they have done recently with the
certification (GCIA) requirements, this class is one of the most intense
courses I have gone through.  The amount of packet level analysis and
IDS analysis that you do will make your head hurt.  I highly recommend
this class to everyone I meet.
2) Forensic Analysis (Hardware) - Since we are mostly an Encase shop, I
can only speak about Encase training.  I do know that SANS also offers a
Forensics course (I think it is Track 8), but I have not been so I
cannot speak on that one.  That being said, I would go to whatever
vendor you decide to use for software, and ask them for training.  This
is probably your best best for understanding the software that your guys
will be using in the field.  Sorry, not a lot of help here on this one.
3) Malcode analysis - I don't know if you guys will be getting into
this, but if you are, there are two options I would suggest here.  One
is a SANS certification called GREM (
http://www.giac.org/certifications/security/grem.php).  A few of my
colleagues have gotten this certification and it seems to have helped
them a great deal.  Also, if you are looking for a cheaper alternative
to this, you can do what many of us have done and train yourself. 
Quite honestly, the best way I feel to learn how different malcode works
/ operates is to play with it yourself.  Get yourself a copy of regmon,
filemon, Tripwire, etc., and set up a little test LAN with a router and
simulate a normal network environment.  Run the code, analyze the
packets, look at what registry settings are changed, see what files are
created, changed, or accessed, and you will be well on your way.  Please
keep in mind that this is a very technically oriented job duty and is
not for the everyday Joe just wanting to dabble.
4) Pen Testing - This is what your original question was asking for, but
as I stated earlier, I don't know if you really understand what you were
asking (please take no offense...this is just my opinion). 
Pen Testing and classes that supposedly teach it have become all the
rage lately and quite frankly, I have yet to see a class that truly
teaches someone how to be a Pen Tester.  That being said, there are a
few courses out there that will allow your guys to get their feet wet
and get a base knowledge if that is what you are looking for.  The best
Intro course I have attended to date was the CEH class (Certified
Ethical Hacker).  This class does not delve deep into the advanced
techniques, but does provide a broad sweep and understanding into how a
Pen Test is performed and the every day tools used in the process. 
Also, I recently attended NSA's IAM and IEM courses which in my opinion,
give a nice overall view on a methodology to use when doing an
evaluation.  Also, ISECOM offers two classes based on the OSTMM that
teach a somewhat different methodology.
Again, please keep in mind that it is somewhat not the norm when you use
the words Law Enforcement Officer, Forensics Analyst, and Pen Tester in
the same sentence.  These are usually three, at the least two,
completely separate job functions that are performed within an
organization.  I have yet to stumble across an employer who wants their
badge waivers to also be Pen Testers, Intrusion Analysts, and Forensics
Analysts at the same time (at least in the Govt. side of things).
I hope this helps you out a bit.  Everyone has their own opinions on all
these courses and subject matter, so please take this as an OPINION and
nothing more.  In no way am I saying that this is the path you should
follow.  Take care.
- Brian Bartholomew

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