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RE: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:25:53 +1000

Happy to be pedantic, and corrected for not being specific enough to be
accurate - but even MSFT is moving away from this (NTLM and Lanman).
When it gets to the point where MSFT is finally going to AES and SHA256
at the expense of backward compatibility... Than is it not time to start
improving 

Kerberos support with IPsec has been about for 5 years on MS products -
longer on Unix

Yes Kerberos has its issues at times as well, but it is a far better
foundation

I also think that this is turning into a few separate discussion points
all under the same thread at the moment :)

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor () hammerofgod com] 
Sent: 22 September 2005 3:19
To: Craig Wright; pand0ra.usa () gmail com; pen-test () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows

No need to look... I'm quite familiar with Urity's work ;) He spoke just
before I did at a Blackhat conference a while back... We had dinner
together (I think that was then... Rika translated for us...) and
discussed it a bit.

The presentation at BH Windows 2002 is more relevant than Tokyo,
actually... 
In 2004 he discussed the NTLM2 response key-- that is not the same as
the
NTLMv2 challenge/response exchange... I may tend to be a bit pedantic
sometimes, but I think it is important to be accurate when discussing
security matters, particularly in the realm of authentication protocols.

Since you said "NTLMv2" broke the hash into "chunks," I thought it
proper to correct that statement. NTLMv2's challenges and responses are
all 128 bit, linear keys.

t



----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
To: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor () hammerofgod com>;
<pand0ra.usa () gmail com>; <pen-test () securityfocus com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows



The session response key

Have a look at
http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-asia-04/bh-jp-04-pdfs/bh-jp-04-
seki.pdf

About page 35-40 give or take from memory

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor () hammerofgod com]
Sent: 22 September 2005 12:00
To: Craig Wright; pand0ra.usa () gmail com; pen-test () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
To: <pand0ra.usa () gmail com>; <pen-test () securityfocus com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows


Even NTLMv2  will break the hashing into chunks which are able to be 
individually broken down.

I'm not sure what you mean... NTLMv2 uses a single 128bit key for the
hash, challenge and response...  Or are you referring to the NTLM2
session response key (56+56+16)? If so, that is not the same thing as
NTLMv2...
Can
you elaborate please ?

t




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