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RE: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:01:35 +1000

PPPS

To drop a quote from Technet (Microsoft Corporation)
"IPsec based Authentication and integrity" and
"Initial security proposals involve using IPsec-based authentication"
"advisable to make IPsec-based authentication a part of the
authentication process"
"IPsec-based authentication is recommended"

To quote the "rmt-pi" working party from the IETF 
"provided using IPsec-based authentication at the network layer"
 
"I'd have to say that there is no such thing..." - Please inform MSFT -
they seem to think there is

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor () hammerofgod com] 
Sent: 22 September 2005 3:46
To: Craig Wright; pand0ra.usa () gmail com; pen-test () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows

Well, that's an issue with the client, not NTLMv2.  NTLMv2 is tight.  LM
sucks- that's obvious (and it was IBM, not MS that gave us that one.)
And yes, you can use precomputed tables against NTLM hashes, but not
against NTLMv2... The NTLM hash is keyed off of the password, but NTLMv2
hashes up the password with the user's domain/user data when generating
the key... 
You can't precompile that data into a rainbow, you know?

Regarding the "IPsec based auth" reference (here I go again), I'd have
to say that there is no such thing... IPSec negotiation in Windows can
be based on one of three mechanisms:  A pre-shared key, Kerberos, or a
cert-- it is not an authentication protocol in itself... (the cert being
the strongest IMO).

t


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
To: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor () hammerofgod com>;
<pand0ra.usa () gmail com>; <pen-test () securityfocus com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows


Further to the last post
There are a number of issues with NTLMv2 and legacy applications such as
Windows RAS that cause lower levels of authentication

I still say that Kerberos or IPsec based auth is the best policy in
windows. LanMan, NTLMv1 or V2 are vulnerable.

Precomputed tables may have been uncommon 12 months ago - but that was
then and this is now.

Cain & Abel will use sorted Rainbow Tables for Cryptanalysis attacks

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor () hammerofgod com]
Sent: 22 September 2005 12:00
To: Craig Wright; pand0ra.usa () gmail com; pen-test () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Wright" <cwright () bdosyd com au>
To: <pand0ra.usa () gmail com>; <pen-test () securityfocus com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Passwords with Lan Manager (LM) under Windows


Even NTLMv2  will break the hashing into chunks which are able to be 
individually broken down.

I'm not sure what you mean... NTLMv2 uses a single 128bit key for the
hash, challenge and response...  Or are you referring to the NTLM2
session response key (56+56+16)? If so, that is not the same thing as
NTLMv2...
Can
you elaborate please ?

t




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