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Re: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest
From: "The McLain Family" <amclain () columbus rr com>
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 19:48:48 -0400

And just to make sure we are on the same page, they have to be from a third party. If you don't use a third party, an officer of the company has to sign off on the the audit, and no officer in their right mind would want to risk the fines. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erin Carroll" <amoeba () amoebazone com>
To: <pen-test () securityfocus com>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest


I wanted to make a minor correction to David's post since I am intimately
familiar with PCI at my day job. :)

The PCI standard does require a business obtain quarterly vulnerability
assessments from an external vendor. PCI also requires an annual penetration
test. The relevant PCI sections are 11.2 and 11.3

----
11.2 - Run internal and external network vulnerability scans at least
quarterly and after any significant change in the network (e.g. new system
component installations, changes in network topology, firewall rule
modifications, product upgrades). Note that external vulnerability scans
must be performed by a scan vendor qualified by the payment card industry

11.3 - Perform penetration testing on network infrastructure and
applications at least once a year and after any significant infrastructure
or application upgrade or modification (e.g. operating system upgrade,
sub-network added to the environment, web server added to the environment)
---

You'll notice the annual pen-test requirement in 11.3 doesn't specify that
an external "qualified" vendor need perform it (it can be done in-house) and
there is nothing specifying that you "stop right at the edge of running the
exploit" as David states. By definition a pen-test requires compromising or
exploiting a vulnerability, otherwise it is a vulnerability scan. However,
nothing in 11.3 specifies that the pen-test has to be run on all production
systems or all at once so that businesses can avoid downtime by creative
interpretation. I could pen-test and compromise a select couple of
webservers out of a production cluster to avoid downtime to business and
that would meet with the 11.3 requirement.

What isn't explicitly defined in 11.2 and 11.3 are where you will see
businesses diverge in policy and procedures…what qualifies to the business
as *significant* changes in the network? For some companies defining
"firewall rule modification" as significant would mean they would have to VA
and pen-test every damned week and I would buy stock in several VA companies
so fast you'd get whiplash. :)

--
Erin Carroll
Moderator
SecurityFocus pen-test list
"Do Not Taunt Happy-Fun Ball"


-----Original Message-----
From: David M. Zendzian [HYPERLINK HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com
mailto:dmz () dmzs com HYPERLINK mailto:dmz () dmzs com mailto:dmz () dmzs com]
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 11:54 AM
To: Curt Purdy
Cc: 'Intel96'; 'Michael Weber'; pen-test () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: What to spend on a pentest

I've been following this thread and have noticed that no one
here is considering the liability of a "real" pen test.
Unless you are testing QA or Dev environments, anything you
find could not only prove that a compromise is real but also
bring that business offline, and since you don't know when or
where or what you'll find the business would need to keep
someone "on-call" during the entire engagement to restore or
fail over.

Plus if you look at some of the pen-test requirements
(standards(pci, ...), regulations(sox, hipaa, ...)) and look
at what they call for when pen-testing.  PCI pen-tests are
required yearly, however the pen test must stop right at the
edge of running the exploit, so you never know if it actually
runs. So here we have an industry standard "pen-test" (and
don't forget that PCI also requires quarterly vulnerability
assessments) where the pen-test is specifically required to
not penetrate.

That tied with most business' not willing to perform social
or physical testing, it is 90% network based these days; so
the majority of pen-tests are really only expanded
vulnerability tests. But also remember that most companies
only get pen-tests or vulnerability tests because of these
standards or regulations which then bind what they testers
are able to do.

What I would be interested in is hearing from those 10% of
pen testers who are able to do "real" pen tests, and what
motivates their clients if it is not a "requirement".

David M. Zendzian
dmz

Curt Purdy wrote:
> Intel96 wrote:
>
>> You also need to determine how much manual testing may have to be
>> performed on the systems.  Such as cracking logins,
cracking cookies,
>> etc, or searching the systems for embedded passwords in script or
>> configurations files and looking at the database schemes.
>>
> <snip>
>
> Unfortunately, most pentest companies don't do manual
testing.  Like
> the bank that I was ISO at hired NetBankAudit to "pentest"
them.  They
> likely had a young tech running scripts on a dozen clients
that night
> and found one minor problem on our acquistion.  The next
Sunday night
> between 10pm and 6am, I manually tested and found six
serious problems.
>
>
> Curt Purdy CISSP, GSNA, GSEC, CNE, MCSE+I, CCDA Information
Security
> Officer Information Systems Security infosysec.net
> 443.846.4231
>
> -------------
>
> If you spend more on coffee than on IT security, you will
be hacked.
> What's more, you deserve to be hacked.
> -- former White House cybersecurity czar Richard Clarke
>
>
>
>
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This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

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This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

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Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the
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testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a
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And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your
results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This List Sponsored by: Cenzic

Concerned about Web Application Security? Why not go with the #1 solution - Cenzic, the only one to win the Analyst's Choice Award from eWeek. As attacks through web applications continue to rise, you need to proactively protect your applications from hackers. Cenzic has the most comprehensive solutions to meet your application security penetration testing and vulnerability management needs. You have an option to go with a managed service (Cenzic ClickToSecure) or an enterprise software (Cenzic Hailstorm). Download FREE whitepaper on how a managed service can help you: http://www.cenzic.com/news_events/wpappsec.php And, now for a limited time we can do a FREE audit for you to confirm your results from other product. Contact us at request () cenzic com for details.
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