Politech: FC: Roger Clarke on FBI wanting to cast aside civil liberties

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

[I agree with the thrust of Roger's comments, but I'm not sure 
international treaties are a measure of how civilized a nation and a people 
are. Governments may formally sign conventions and realistically ignore 
them. I'd say the measure of civilization depends on respect for people, 
life, and property, on tolerance for dissenting political and religious 
views, on willingness not to reject technological advancements, on a 
commitment to defending our nation while staying true to the Constitution, 
and so on. Alas, by those measures, the U.S. is not doing so well either. 
--Declan]
********

Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:31:41 +1000
From: Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarke () xamax com au>
Subject: FC: FBI wants to cast aside civil liberties, torture mentioned
Cc: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>

> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:23:02 -0700
> To: politech () politechbot com
> From: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
>
> From: staff () rotten com
> To: declan () well com
> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 07:09:57 -0700
>
> This is a very scary opening sentence:
>
> "FBI and Justice Department investigators are increasingly frustrated by 
> the silence of jailed suspected associates of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda 
> network, and some are beginning to that say that traditional civil 
> liberties may have to be cast aside if they are to extract information 
> about the Sept. 11 attacks and terrorist plans."
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A27748-2001Oct20.html

If the USA wanted to convince us how dangerous they are, not to say 
downright uncivilised, then they're doing well.
A mere 40 days in the wilderness, and its President has instructed its 
security agencies to conduct assassinations, and now his law enforcement 
agencies are softening people up with a view to suspending UDHR, ICCPR, oh 
yes and probably the country's own Constitution.
Given that Bush has frequently (incorrectly) referred to the campaign as a 
war, I guess we can safely assume that he's happy to suspend (or just 
ignore) the Geneva Convention as well.  Which of the institutions that 
define 'civilisation' are left intact?
It's one thing to feel sympathy with people frustrated by their inability 
to extract information, and fearful of attacks more effective than anthrax 
in envelopes.  But it's another to revert to the morality of the stone age.
--
Roger Clarke              http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke () xamax com au         http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Fellow                       Department of Computer Science
The Australian National University     Canberra  ACT  0200 AUSTRALIA
Information Sciences Building Room 211       Tel:  +61  2  6125 3666

********

Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:18:38 -0700
To: declan () well com, politech () politechbot com
From: Lizard <lizard () mrlizard com>
Subject: Re: FC: FBI wants to cast aside civil liberties, torture mentioned
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011021221355.01feb600 () mail well com>
Mime-Version: 1.0

At 10:23 PM 10/21/2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> ********
>
> From: staff () rotten com
> To: declan () well com
> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 07:09:57 -0700
>
> This is a very scary opening sentence:
>
> "FBI and Justice Department investigators are increasingly frustrated by 
> the silence of jailed suspected associates of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda 
> network, and some are beginning to that say that traditional civil 
> liberties may have to be cast aside if they are to extract information 
> about the Sept. 11 attacks and terrorist plans."
Well, invest in companies making thumbscrews.

********




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