RE: Signing before Encryption and Signing after Encryption

["David Gillett" <gillettdavid () fhda edu>]

  Does non-repudiation require anything more than assurance that the
private key (a) MUST have been used, and (b) HASN'T been compromised?
Are you just alluding to the measures which support those assertions, 
or to some additional requirement(s) that escapes me?

  [If your private key isn't really private, all bets are off.]

David Gillett


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au] 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:56 PM
> To: gillettdavid () fhda edu; shyaam () gmail com; 
> security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Signing before Encryption and Signing after Encryption
>
>
> True, but the argument was not one as to which is the better method.
> There are several secure hashing algorithms.
>
>
> Further there is more to verification to source than just 
> asymmetric keys. Non-repudiation is a complex field in itself 
> and requires a entire range of associated infrastructure.
>
> Regards
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Gillett [mailto:gillettdavid () fhda edu]
>
> Sent: 23 March 2006 4:32
> To: Craig Wright; shyaam () gmail com; security-basics () securityfocus com
> Subject: RE: Signing before Encryption and Signing after Encryption
>
>   The property that a hash match is supposed to verify (is 
> this copy the same as the original) is not quite the same as 
> the property that a signature verifies (did this document 
> come from that source).  There
> *are* many applications where one is an acceptable 
> alternative to the other.
>
>   However, there have been numerous news items in the last 18 
> months about the feasibility of engineering hash collisions 
> with several popular algorithms; hashing must be assumed to 
> provide weaker verification of its property than might have 
> been previously assumed.
> (For now, I've recommended that folks using tools that don't yet do
> SHA-256 or better should use *both* MD5 and SHA-1 -- I don't 
> think anyone has yet described an engineered collision that 
> works with both.)
>
>
>   Engineering hash collisions is apparently easier than 
> compromising a properly-secured private key used in a good 
> asymmetric algorithm.
>
> David Gillett
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Craig Wright [mailto:cwright () bdosyd com au]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:03 PM
> > To: gillettdavid () fhda edu; shyaam () gmail com;
>
> > security-basics () securityfocus com
> > Subject: RE: Signing before Encryption and Signing after Encryption
>
> >
>
> > Hello,
> > Just to be difficult....
>
> > David stated "Signing requires a private key". This is 
> correct through
>
> > feasibility, but it is not technically correct as there are 
> signature
>
> > schemes that only require symmetric keys. Signing with 
> symmetric keys
>
> > is a lot more complex and thus more prone to error and has 
> a range of
>
> > key management issues. This does not mean that it is not possible.
>
> > In fact there are scheme to sign a message using only Hashing
>
> > algorithms. The simplest of these is to hash the document and keep a
>
> > list of document hashes (similar to software). A user could 
> check the
>
> > list to see if the message was valid or if tampering had occurred. A
>
> > third party could keep the hash tables to ensure that the 
> lists where
>
> > accurate.
>
> >
>
> > So signing does not require a private key - it just makes it easier.
> > Next it also depends on non-repudiation/repudiation issues.
>
> > It is easy to sign a document and have a verification that it is
>
> > unaltered but with no proof that the original signer could not come
>
> > back and accuse the receiver of forging the document.
>
> > An example symmetric scheme could be:
>
> > Alice encrypts a message using a symmetric key known to Bob 
> (and Alice
> > only)
> > Alice hashes the encrypted message
>
> > Alice encrypts the (encrypted) message and hash using a 
> symmetric key
>
> > known to Jim but unknown to Bob Bob receives the hashed and 
> encrypted
>
> > message.
>
> > If Bob alters the message - the hash will not work. Alice 
> can not lie
>
> > as Jim has a copy.
> > Key management is a bugger, but still possible (though unlikely)
>
> > ANSI X9.17 Notarised Symmetric Keys may be used to sign.
>
> >
>
> > Regards
> > Craig S Wright
>
> > PS There are also hybrid ciphers for signing which are based on a
>
> > combination of all the above - but this for another post
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Gillett [mailto:gillettdavid () fhda edu]
>
> > Sent: 22 March 2006 6:21
> > To: shyaam () gmail com; security-basics () securityfocus com
> > Subject: RE: Signing before Encryption and Signing after Encryption
>
> >   Signing requires a private key -- therefore, it *must* be
>
> > Asymmetric.
> > Asymmetric is typically much slower than Symmetric, so you 
> get things
>
> > like SSL that use Asymmetric to protect the exchange of the 
> Symmetric
>
> > key used for actual payload encryption.
>
> >   Signing after encryption allows the signature to be verified
>
> > before/without decrypting the payload.  There are a variety of
>
> > circumstances in which that could be useful, which are 
> blocked if the
>
> > signing is done first.  I can't think of any where the opposite is
>
> > true.
>
> > David Gillett, CISSP
>
> >
>
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