Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: New paper on Security and Obscurity
From: gadgeteer () elegantinnovations org
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 02:55:14 -0600
On Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 11:10:01PM -0400, Peter Swire (peter () peterswire net) wrote: [...] (top of p. 6) If the patch is not available and taking the system off-line or disabling are not possible. The owner, now knowing of the vulnurablity, can monitor that function more closely. (p. 6) On first reading (B2) seemed to imply that military paradigm designers are idiots that do not learn from their mistakes. A second pass that an attack/defense scenario is a one time affair. The latter depends on how one keeps score. For those who die on the field of battle as a result, any appeal to a god-like designer is no relief. For them it is, in fact, a one time event from which no lessons will be gleaned. For those whose ambitions for power led them to manipuluate the social calculus such that others went into harm's way, the lessons to be learned are very different. The history of weapon technology speaks loudly of the lessons they are interested in. Secrecy, suppression of dissent, and propaganda are hallmarks and so deeply ingrained in modern society that many do not even question what, or even if there are any benefits to waging war. Or who would so benefit. So, to perpetuate the military paradigm, specialists who do not question the underlying assumptions must be found and employed. Those who think outside the box would find other solutions that would depose those who would seek such power over others. The Great Cold War of the last century was not won through military means. It was not won by US political leaders. It was won by Levi jeans and bottles of Coke. That is to say, it was won by a highly distributed, non-zero sum, marketplace. A bazaar of ideas that a monopolistic structure can not compete against in the long run. Ah, now I am veering off from my original criticism of the assumptions that support the very concept of a military paradigm. The framing of (B3) in a WWII analogy of the Navy being the defender is a staying-inside-the-lines strawman. The real historical lesson to be taken from WWII is how to stop rogue politician(s) from acting unilaterally. I will give you a hint. The solution will not be found in secrecy. (p. 8) In the analysis of (C1). The first thing to realize is that there are over 6 billion people on this planet. Dispite what minority politicians (nearly all politicians are minority politicians (especially those in D.C.)) would have us believe people are not particularily different from one another. As good as humans are a facial recognition even folks who don't get out much will run into people who "look just like my best friend in grade school". The problem is false postitives. A hypothetical terrorist organization should view such "watch lists" as retirement lists. Another thing is why try and get a copy of such a list? Want to know if you are on a list? Get on an airplane. If you get "special treatment" odds are good the name you go by is on a list. So what? Due to false positives not much is going to happen. The "not much is going to happen" occurs hundreds, thousands of times every day. The result of "defender fatigue". So, billions of dollars, untold hours of inconvenience, and non-calculable stress on the very fabric of society to catch how many "terrorists"? Maybe I slept in and did not read the story that day when that caught one using such a list. As Bruce Schneier has been fond of saying lately, "Security is a trade off." And Brother, this one sucks. Just as the FBI renamed Carnivore. Just as DoD renamed TIA. Now the TSA is renaming CAPPS II. Why? This type of measure does not work. Anyone with clue knows this. So, why? What are the benefits? Who accrues those benefits? In a society as complex as ours, a better framing would be "what are the different benenfits" and "who are the various entities they accrue to?" Well, I only made it as far as page 8. There is a place for secrecy in security. I am not going to tell you my password. However, the premise laid out up to this point are sand. -- Chief Gadgeteer Elegant Innovations _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
Current thread:
- New paper on Security and Obscurity Peter Swire (Aug 31)
- Re: New paper on Security and Obscurity gadgeteer (Sep 01)
- Re: New paper on Security and Obscurity Dave Aitel (Sep 01)
- Re: New paper on Security and Obscurity gadgeteer (Sep 01)
- Re: New paper on Security and Obscurity stephane nasdrovisky (Sep 01)
- Re: New paper on Security and Obscurity stephane nasdrovisky (Sep 01)
- Re: New paper on Security and Obscurity Barry Fitzgerald (Sep 01)
- RE: Response to comments on Security and Obscurity Peter Swire (Sep 01)
- RE: Response to comments on Security and Obscurity Dave Aitel (Sep 01)
- Security & Obscurity: First-time attacks and lawyer jokes Peter Swire (Sep 02)
- Re: Security & Obscurity: First-time attacks and lawyer jokes Georgi Guninski (Sep 02)
- Re: Security & Obscurity: First-time attacks and lawyer jokes Honza Vlach (Sep 03)
- RE: Response to comments on Security and Obscurity Peter Swire (Sep 01)
