Re: Microsoft takes 7 years to 'solve' a problem?!

["Memisyazici, Aras" <arasm () vt edu>]

<snip>
M$ should just bite the incompatibility bullet and turn NTLM off - that's been an option for users, theoretically 
speaking, since about the time Windows Kerberos support became mature, and practically speaking, nobody seems to be 
turning NTLM off here in the real world.
</snip>

Err... Have ya' ever attended 'any' sec. conf. in the past 6 years?? If so, you'd see recommendation #1 has always been:

*) refuse LM & NTLM, accept NTLMv2 only

Really... It's not that bad...  And in my world it is above along with quite a few others. The "industry-std" to 
locking down Windows has involved the above step for years now (O'Reilly books, several respectable authors...)

As I said before, people have moved on long ago since Microsoft's "solutions" weren't acceptable at the time. Some made 
the switch to other OSes, some bought soft. to counter-act the effect, some focused on the security-side of things... 
Regardless tho; they moved on! After all these years M$ coming and saying, "yeah, btw we fixed this issue" is just... 
disappointing.


Aras 'Russ' Memisyazici
Systems Administrator
Virginia Tech


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Rachner <eric () rachner us>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:26 AM
To: Memisyazici, Aras <arasm () vt edu>
Cc: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk <full-disclosure () lists grok org uk>; bugtraq () securityfocus com <bugtraq 
() securityfocus com>
Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Microsoft takes 7 years to 'solve' a problem?!

Hey, kid -

If you've got any better ideas about how to fix NTLM, the industry is ready & waiting to hear them.

The fact is, NTLM is an old & busted protocol that happens to be used everywhere, and there's no way to fix it without 
breaking compatibility with, oh, just the entire installed base.  I was happy to see MS08-068 because the technique it 
implements is better than nothing - it offers a nice, clever way to reduce the exploitability of the issue without 
breaking anything important.

Don't bother telling us all how M$ should just bite the incompatibility bullet and turn NTLM off - that's been an 
option for users, theoretically speaking, since about the time Windows Kerberos support became mature, and practically 
speaking, nobody seems to be turning NTLM off here in the real world.

- Eric


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Memisyazici, Aras <arasm () vt edu> wrote:


        <RANT>
        
        <snip:: taken from MSRC Blog: http://blogs.technet.com/msrc/archive/2008/11/11/ms08-068-and-smbrelay.aspx>
        
        What we released today with MS08-068 is that security update. It addresses the SMBRelay issue (discovered in 
2001) does so in a way that doesn't have the negative impact on applications that we originally believed addressing 
this issue would have.
        
        </snip>
        
        So... Hmm... I wonder what would happen if the rest of the world followed suit with M$' approach, and took 7 
years to "fix" an issue in order to "not cause a significant impact"...
        
        Scenario:
        
        Ppl: Hey Ford, if one brute-forces the keyless entry on the door, you're car explodes...
        
        Ford: well... I'll offer you three choices, two immediately, and the last one 7 yrs later. You can either not 
use the keyless entry system (we'll give you some shiny duck-tape to cover it) or you can use the biometric-knub system 
which requires that you have a knub... So those who have arms & legs can't use the system... (btw this will give birth 
to a whole new industry that will allow ppl to pay money for a product that fakes a knub for people with appendages) 
But it's biometric & cool this way! Or you can wait for 7 years and we'll release a non-exploding version of the 
keyless-entry system.
        
        ***************************************
        
        OK... Maybe I'm going a bit extreme, but WTH?! Am I the only one who is interpreting this, this way? Really? 
When has releasing a solution to a problem 7 years later ever been acceptable?
        
        Jus' sayin' ...
        
        </RANT>
        
        Aras 'Russ' Memisyazici
        Systems Administrator
        Virginia Tech
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