funsec mailing list archives
Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?
From: "Randy Abrams" <abrams () eset com>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 17:51:34 -0700
It's the pro-wealthy tax system that is getting rid of the middle class.
The illegal immigrants are the red herring that the naive buy by the
metric ton from those who wish to keep the rich rich and the misguided
fighting those who are not their enemies.
Not saying to ignore immigration laws, but focus on the significant
problems, not the fish sandwiches you've been gnawing on.
Cheers,
Randy
________________________________
From: C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 5:38 PM
To: Alex Eckelberry
Cc: Randy Abrams; privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
Subject: Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID?
There are two issues here:
1. National ID and its benefits
2. Illegal aliens and their impact on the lives of the people
who live in the US.
I got distracted a bit with issue number even though it's not
about the National ID itself.
However, it is a very very very serious problem... more than you
may realize. The illegal
aliens are not keeping this country going... They have the
opposite long term effect.
They are destroying this country and destroying the middle class
and the hopes
and the opportunities for the the US citizens.
It's important to make a distinction between immigrants, people
who come here
legally, and illegal aliens. America needs immigrants. They
provide fresh sources
of brain power and fresh sources of man power. Immigrants and
their drive the achieve
their dreams is what made this country great.
When it comes to illegal aliens there are a number of negative
side effects...
both short term and long term. Once of the short term side
effects is the stagnating
wages in the very industries where some businesses and defenders
of the illegals
claim that we don't have enough people to do the job and where
Americans don't
want to do the job. In the construction, service, and
agriculture the wages have stayed
the same or even declined over the last 20 years (taking into
the consideration the inflation
and other factors). The basic rules of economics indicate that
when there's short supply
the demand results in increased prices and in this case it
should have resulted in the increased
wages; however, the effect is the opposite.
As for the claim that americans don't want these jobs... these
are a lot of times simply lies
or a result and unwilliness to search for workers. Take the
recent raid here in MA in New Bedford
where a whole bunch of illegals were arrested... The funny thing
is that pretty much the next day
those jobs were filled... and they were filled with US citizens.
So much for americans not wanting
those jobs. The real problem is that the employers just don't
want to pay for the job. They want
to exploit the cheap labor and the illegals are willing to put
up with that. This is the new age slavery.
Speaking of slavery... What is slavery... Slavery is cheap
labor. Now let's go back in time when we
were using slave to do a lot of work. I'm pretty sure that in
that age there were a lot of people who
didn't want to get rid of slavery because they didn't want to
loose cheap labor. Slaves were
"keeping this country going economically". Sounds familiar? Yes,
this is what you are saying
about the illegals. Now let me ask you a question... Did the US
survive after getting read of slavery?
No! And if we survived getting rid of the ultimate source of
cheap labor, slaves, we will definitely
do find without having to use illegal aliens.
Now let's talk about why Americans don't take a lot of those
jobs... The main reason is that you can
not survive on that kind of money if you live here legally!!!
It's that simple... I recommend all of you
to watch one of the episodes of "30 days" made by Morgan
Spurlock. This is the guy who made
"Supersize Me". He had a series on Fox where he explored various
topics for 30 days. One of those
topics was, "Is it possible to live on the minimal wage". He and
his girlfriend lived got minimal wage
jobs and tried to live on that for 30 days. The results of this
documentary will tell you a lot... They
barely managed to survive.. The bottom line if you live here by
the law doing everything you are suppose
to... paying all of the official expenses... you are on the edge
of existence.
You may ask, "well, then how do illegal aliens manage to survive
on so little money"? The answer is very simple.
They do it because of subhuman living conditions and not having
to pay for a lot of things US citizens and permanent
residents have to pay. It's not uncommon for illegals to be
stuffed like sardines on top of each other in a 3 bedroom
house. As a result, each of them probably ends up paying at most
$100 a month for rent. Now let me ask you...
How much would it take if you want to get an apartment or a
house? Well, here in MA it's not uncommon to pay $1200
a month. Now let's compare... $100 an illegal spends on rent
living in subhuman conditions and $1200 a citizen spends
on average rent. Tell me how can I afford to work the job this
illegal has if only in rent I need to pay 12 times more than
he does? Good question... isn't it...
Let's now forget that we have a huge number of legal immigrants
coming to this country each year.
At one point in my life I actually worked for a government
agency that deal with new immigrants (i'm talking about
legal immigrants). And I can tell you on my own experience that
those people were willing to do any job,
but it actually took a while to get jobs for some. And why...
because some shady employers would
rather hire an illegal for half the price rather then hire a
legal immigrant who just came to this country.
Kinda ironic... isn't it. All this screaming about not having
enough people to do the jobs, but for some
reasons the legal immigrants who are ready and willing to work
can't find jobs.
As for national IDs. They are good for properly identifying who
you are dealing with. National IDs will result
in reduced identity theft, which is actually more relevant to
this mailing list. The last time I checked...
identity theft was bad :-)
On 5/18/07, Alex Eckelberry <AlexE () sunbelt-software com > wrote:
I can't actually understand, even after looking through
your post, why it's _good_ to have a national ID card. All I can see is
an inevitable _bad_ that comes out of it.
Incidentally, "illegal aliens" are the very people who
are actually keeping this country going economically. Perhaps we could
have a national ID card just for those American citizens who want to
pick strawberries and wash dishes.
That would greatly limit the amount of cards issued and
we'd all be happy.
Alex Eckelberry
________________________________
From: Randy Abrams [mailto:abrams () eset com]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 4:28 PM
To: C Q; privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
Subject: Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be
National ID?
pass the Kool-Aid please
________________________________
From: C Q [mailto:kyle.c.quest () gmail com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:56 PM
To: privacy () whitestar linuxbox org
Subject: Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to
be National ID?
It's a great idea to have a national id that's
hard to forge...
and even if not every place has a biometric card
reader
if the card is properly designed you'll be able
to spot a fake
(e.g., think special paper we use for money...
with water
marks and metal strips. and even though the
money is far
from perfect it's relatively easy to spot a fake
by touch and
by simply looking at them). This way even the
farmers or whoever
who don't have computers will be able to check
the legality
of their workers.
Illegal aliens are one of the major problems in
the US
(we are not unique... any western country
suffers from
it... UK, France, etc... and even Mexico, which
is kinda funny considering
that they are also trying to get rid of illegal
aliens
from their southern borders).
Yes, it's true that not everybody who want to
come
to the states and work can do that, but it's not
because
there's no legal way... it's because there are
literally hundreds
of millions of people who live in bad
conditions. It's physically
impossible take them all in... the country will
simply fall apart.
It's like a case when you have ship sinking and
there's enough
life boats only for a few people... if everybody
tries to get
on those few boats the boats will sink and
everybody will drown.
The US can not save everybody less fortunate in
the world.
We do take more legal immigrants every year than
any other
country in the world (I forgot the exact
numbers, but I seem to
remember it's about 3 million people) and on top
of that
we have a number of "guest worker" programs. H1B
is one
of them, but there are a number of others as
well, which is
teens from South Africa end up working as sky
instructors
during winters and kids from Scotland and Russia
end up working
in movie theaters during summers here in New
England.
The funny thing is that unlike UK or Australia
(I might be a bit off
on the names of the countries a bit... getting
late) who use a point
based system to determine who should get in
their country
our process is random, so we don't really get
the best and the brightest.
It's important to have a tamper-proof id that
verifies a person's
identity and his/her national status. It's the
least we can do
and I personally don't see a big deal why people
are so scared
of this. Other countries have internal passports
as mandatory
national IDs... and nothing terrible happens to
people there.
We have technology to do this and it doesn't
have to be too
high tech.
On 5/17/07, Fergie <fergdawg () netzero net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Via Homeland Stupidity.
[snip]
Two proposals being floated around
Capitol Hill call for the Social
Security card to be updated with
biometric information and for U.S.
employers to be required to verify it
with the Department of Homeland
Security when hiring.
Scared yet? You should be. While
everyone was off fighting the REAL ID
battle, national identification
proponents were sneaking in the back door,
arguing that the Social Security card
should be updated with the latest
technology to prevent illegal immigrants
from working.
Under the so-called Bonner Plan,
citizens and resident aliens alike would
have to obtain a new Social Security
card containing their photograph, a
barcode or magnetic stripe containing an
encrypted signature verifiable
through card readers provided by the
Department of Homeland Security, and
would have to present this card in order
to obtain work. The plan provides
that employers who fail to verify the
card face fines, prison time, and
would be billed for the cost of
deporting any illegal aliens they may have
hired.
Of course, they're still claiming that
the card wouldn't be a national
ID card. But if it walks like a duck and
quacks like a duck, it certainly
isn't a sheep.
[snip]
More:
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/16/social-security-card-to-be-na
tio
nal-id/
- - ferg
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--
"Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
Engineering Architecture for the
Internet
fergdawg(at)netzero.net
ferg's tech blog:
http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
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Current thread:
- [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Fergie (May 16)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? C Q (May 16)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Randy Abrams (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Alex Eckelberry (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? C Q (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? C Q (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Randy Abrams (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? C Q (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Randy Abrams (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? C Q (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Randy Abrams (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? C Q (May 16)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Valdis . Kletnieks (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? C Q (May 18)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Brian Loe (May 21)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Alex Eckelberry (May 21)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Brian Loe (May 21)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Valdis . Kletnieks (May 21)
- Re: [privacy] Social Security Card to be National ID? Brian Loe (May 21)