FC: More on what-declan-doesnt-get.com and Larry Lessig's book

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

[Some replies, with and without names]


> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:47:37 -0600
> Subject: better links
> From: Lawrence Lessig <lessig () pobox com>
> To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
>
>
> My link to Mark and my paper is bad for some browsers. This is a better
> page. Sorry. 
>
> <http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/works/lessig/MB.html>



> What-larry-doesn't-get ... is web development.  Half his links open new
> browser pages, even within his own site, or link to pages that never finish
> loading.  If he contracted this out, he should sue.



> this brings to mind the article that Wired published on the Amish (a
> while back now), who have a very go-slow approach to technology that has
> resulted in them having electricity in the barn but not the home,
> telephones in the field but not the home, and machinery on the farm but
> not for personal use.  Lord preserve us from paternalistic government.



> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:40:29 -0500
> To: declan () well com
> From: "Eric D. Dixon" <humbaba () bigfoot com>
> Subject: Re: FC: what-declan-doesnt-get.com -- excerpt from Larry
>  Lessig's book
>
> Larry Lessig wrote:
> > If we believe
> > that government cannot do anything good, then Declan^s
> > plea^that it do nothing^makes sense. And if government can do
> > nothing, then it follows that we should treat these man-made
> > disasters as natural. Just as we speak of the disaster of the West
> > Coast sliding into the Pacific, so too should we speak of a disaster
> > of code sliding us into another dark age. Neither can we do
> > anything about, yet both are great topics for growing audiences.
> > I^ve advocated a different response. We need to think
> > collectively and sensibly about how this emerging reality will affect
> > our lives. Do-nothingism is not an answer; something can and
> > should be done.
>
> The error with this reasoning is the notion that when something should be
> done, government should do it.  Central authorities are ineffective at
> understanding decentralized systems, let alone actually following through
> with a solution that requires decentralized knowledge and implementation.
>
> Eric D. Dixon


> Hey Declan, the domain name what-larry-doesnt-get.com is available.  Not to
> be petty (oh, why not) but I bet some of us "smart, if young,
> libertarian[s]" could create an extremely large web site at that name.
>
> At last year's Federalist Society National Convention Lessig debated Judge
> Frank Easterbrook on the topic of property rights in the 21st Century.
> Lessig, always ready to sow fear and alarm, provided us his vision of the
> coming digital, networked world:  It would be like Czarist Russia, where one
> needed internal passports to travel anywhere, frequently being stopped at
> checkpoints.  (Don't ask me why he needed to skip over Soviet Russia and
> reach back before 1917 for his analogy).  Yes, according to Lessig, because
> of the nature of what he calls "code," the 'net will be filled with
> barriers-access to content will be extremely restricted.
>
> If he earned a living working with real live businesspeople, he might see
> things differently.  I'm an attorney who does lots of internet content and
> other e-commerce deals.  From where I sit, the idea of a 'net with tons of
> barriers is one of the biggest howlers I've ever heard.  Really.  That idea
> is sooo incredibly out of touch.  The overused cliché "you just don't get
> it" really does apply here.
>
> This is no brilliant, original insight:  Everywhere you look in the business
> world, the internet is breaking down barriers to content and between
> businesses.  Try requiring even free registration for your site; your
> traffic will drop precipitously because of that minor inconvenience.  Far
> from the world of checkpoints Lessig imagines, every day I see businesses
> working feverishly to draw people to their content.  Online businesses are
> endlessly inventive, finding new ways to work together to give people the
> information they want.
>
> The real online world bears no resemblance to what Lessig describes.
> Barriers, checkpoints?  Tell that to my clients who are paying or getting
> paid bags of money to direct eyeballs to content.  Tell that to Encyclopedia
> Britannica, which just started to give away its core product!  The internet
> world is filled with co-branding, affiliate programs, cross-linking deals,
> content licensing, joint ventures, and so on.  It's a fun, exciting place
> that's more free and connected every day-180 degrees from the miserable,
> atomistic place that Lessig describes.
>
> Sure, he might say, it's fine now, but wait until things settle down.  Wait
> until people no longer have to give things away to establish market share
> and branding.  Well, there's no evidence yet for Lessig's point of view, and
> plenty of evidence to the contrary.  Let's wait it out.
>
> I'd bet that we'll see his pet theories disproven quickly.  But since when
> has that stopped an academic?



> "So central are the Declans in our political culture today that I confess
> I cannot see a way around them."
>
> This must be why we both exert such enormous influence in the centers
> of political power. (Funny how incompetent we've been so far...and how
> successful Mr. Lessig and his ilk are by contrast.) 
>
> I suppose this counts as ridicule, "with a self-righteous sneer." So be it.
> I'd call it sarcasm -- the language of last resort on the 'net when "you're
> wrong, and here's why..." doesn't work, or only produces "fine whine"
> from the left.
>
> So, when ya gonna register "what-larry-doesn't-get"? ;^)


> Declan,
> I was stunned and stumped to read your post regarding the book "Code" by
> Larry Lessig. I can not figure where this guy is coming from and am even
> more stumped trying to decipher where he is going. Ass the host of two
> separate radio shows for two different stations n Hawaii, I find your posts
> articulate, credible, verifiable and down to earth. This Mr. Lessig seems to
> be trying to paint you as "Eeyore" in Winnie the Pooh. I think perhaps you
> are more of Christopher Robin, and our friend Mr. Lessig is piglet!
> I use your column daily as part of my shows foundation, to report to my
> listeners on KKCR where our personal freedoms are heading. I find your
> writing poignant, provocative and very informative.
>
> As far as his take on your Y2K perspective, I am almost embarrassed for him
> at how off base he is. My weekly radio shows is sponsored by FEMA and Civil
> Defense on the island of Kauai (state of Hawaii). I asked for, and was given
> complete freedom of speech on the show.
> I co-formed the Mayor's Y2K task force last year, as well as co-founded the
> Island's only citizens Y2K preparedness group. Our island has pulled
> together (60,000 people), the government and all the major industry on the
> island, as well as the banks, hospitals etc., in amazing ways. I eat, sleep,
> and drink Y2K media from all credible sources. I have never seen one of your
> posts stray more then an inch or two from the middle of the road. I have
> perhaps stronger feelings about "possible" outcomes of Y2K then many of the
> islands residents, but I also work hard to drive down the middle of the road
> as much as possible in regards to the information I disseminate.
> Please keep up the good work. You are not whining from the shadows, with a
> do nothing "it will never work" attitude, but rather, you are shining the
> light for many such as myself who can use your research, connections
> perspective as a beacon pointing us in the right direction. One that allows
> us to then disseminate these dirty secrets and inane stupidities we call
> politics to the masses. It's our damn government no matter what anyone
> thinks, and the game is never over.
> I think Mr. Lessig should look up the word "PROJECTION".
> If we sit on our asses and write books about other peoples work, rather then
> sticking our own necks out, then our demise IS a certainty.
>
> Mahalo's Plenty from the Garden Island.
> THANKS FOR THE GOOD WORK. I hope I am rich enough some day to have you as a
> phone guest on my little radio show in the islands.
> Aloha.
> Karlos F. deTreaux
>
> KKCR Community Radio
> KONG Commercial Radio
> Kauai, HI.



> From: mikus () bga com (Mikus Grinbergs)
> To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
> Subject: Re: FC: what-declan-doesnt-get.com -- excerpt from Larry Lessig's
book
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:24:27 -0600
> Organization: Gone Walkabout
>
> Declan, it seems IMPOSSIBLE for me to feel anything other than
> that Lessig is right.
>
> Illustration:  I've been following the 'raven' list that IETF set
> up.  Among the points brought up there was CALEA.  __Not one__ of
> the participants treated CALEA as something created by politicians
> (that is, by Man).  Instead, CALEA was accepted as given (that is,
> produced by gods) and the discussion was on how to interpret what
> CALEA said.
>
> mikus


> From: Wes_Morgan () DataBeam com
> X-Lotus-FromDomain: LOTUS
> To: declan () well com
> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:00:38 -0500
> Subject: Re: FC: what-declan-doesnt-get.com -- excerpt from Larry Lessig's
>       book
>
> =The truth, I suspect, is that the Declans will win^at least
> =for now.
> OK, we've got to jump on this one.  It's time for membership cards,
> initiation rites, rings (but not token rings) of membership, unobtrusive
> decals for our vehicles, secret passphrases; it's time to make ourselves
> known.
>
> --Wes "Declan #43" Morgan
>
> ps> We mustn't forget the bowling shirts.




> I am proud to be receiving your posts, which are suddenly seemingly so
> controversial, although apparently too narrowly defined for this
> writer's tastes.  
>
> Y2K issues are topical because so much is happening right now, and it's
> been slow for news otherwise, like wars and Monica-gate.  Once we turn
> the corner on 1-1-2000, the topic will dry up again, and maybe then this
> writer can squeeze out more interest in his view of what the industry
> should be doing to save itself from "natural disaster".  
>
> By the way, has the writer ever submitted anything to you directly? I'm
> assuming you would entertain his viewpoints, especially if he has real
> ideas to save the world?
>
> For now, please keep up what you're doing!  Although some of your posts
> are long, and not always on a topic I'm interested in, I usually read
> all of them.  I appreciate the timeliness of breaking news in this
> general area of electronic privacy issues, however you define it.  It's
> one thing to report news, another to editorialize on the news, and
> another to actually take action to effect change.   I don't think one
> person can effectively do all three.  Perhaps this writer should be
> convincing someone to do number three, rather than criticizing numbers
> one and two.
>
> Thanks for your time and efforts to keep everyone informed!   You can't
> be everything to everyone, so don't even try.   Do what you can
> effectively, and follow your gut instincts.  Hopefully you'll hear from
> others about your listserver, and can see if you're on the right track
> generally; I think you are.   


> Damn!  Prof. Lessig needs a life.  



> Astonishing.  I wonder whether Lessig frets similarly  about the
ultimately uncontrollable nature of democracy, or of socio-cultural forces
generally.  Or does he know something we don't know?


> Wow Declan, you're a celebrity. I suppose this was written during a very
> specific window of time. (Actually, duh, damn near everything that's
> written is written during a very specific window of time). Anyway,
> Lessig's piece is dated because you haven't been posting much Y2k
> information in recent months.

> ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz......snort......zzzzzzzzzz



> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:21:24 -0500
> From: "Harvey A. Silverglate" <has () world std com>
> Organization: Silverglate & Good
> To: declan () well com
> CC: "Lessig, Larry" <lessig () law harvard edu>,
>        "Lydon, Christopher" <chris.lydon () wbur bu edu>
> Subject: Re: FC: what-declan-doesnt-get.com -- excerpt from Larry Lessig's
book
> DECLAN,
>       I heard Lessig speak the other night at Harvard's Sackler Auditorium,
> on a panel run by Chris Lydon. I actually heard him say that we have
> more to fear from Disney than from the government. This is a statement
> that could ONLY be made by someone protected by the cocoon of the
> university, with tenure, who has never been beset by the government. I
> am no fan of what Disney does to the culture, but culture has not died,
> it's just been supplemented by what I consider crap but others do not.
> In my work, I daily see the damage done by government run amok, and ours
> runs amoke much too much of the time. It is very clear to me why it is
> essential to keep govt away from controlling/regulating much of
> cyberspace. It will be evident to Larry Lessig only after it's too
> late.  At the panel discussion, I tried to ask a question, but panel
> host Christopher Lydon did not call on me. My question would have been:
> "Prof. Lessig, Are you really that confident that we are past the point
> of no-return, where the danger of technology supporting rather than
> making impossible a "1984 scenario" is truly impossible? Are you really
> more afraid of Disney than of the Government? What private company ever
> organized a genocide? I can name several governments that did, and many
> others that abided genocide."  Alas, I never got to answer the question.
>                               Harvey
> -- 
> Harvey A. Silverglate
> Silverglate & Good
> http://www.silverglategood.com
> 83 Atlantic Avenue
> Boston, MA 02110
> Ofc Tel 617/523-5933
> Ofc Fax 617/523-7554
> Res Tel 617/661-9156
> Res Fax 617/492-4925
> mailto:has () world std com
> Visit THE SHADOW UNIVERSITY Website
> http://www.shadowuniv.com



> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:46:27 -0600
> Subject: Re: FC: what-declan-doesnt-get.com -- excerpt from Larry Lessig's
>       book
> From: Larry Lessig <lessig () law harvard edu>
> To: <has () world std com>, <declan () well com>
>
> Harvey,
> thanks for cc-ing me on this. that was very decent of you. in fact, I said
> no such thing. sorry you misunderstood.
>
>
> -- 
> Lessig
> (9/1/99-7/31/00)
> Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin
> Wallotstraße 19
> 14193 Berlin
> Germany
> 011.49.30.89001.351 (vx home)
> 011.49.30.89001.235 (vx office)
> 001.49.30.89001.300 (fx)
> 419.831.9295 (fax)
> <http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/lessig.html>
> <http://what-declan-doesnt-get.com>
> <mailto:lessig () pobox com>




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