FC: Responses to Pentagon claim about basketball-reading spy gear

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

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http://www.politechbot.com/p-04562.html

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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 00:50:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall <jhall () astron Berkeley EDU>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000
 miles  away
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030313101911.02773cf0 () mail well com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0303170016350.1237-100000@irk>

> When it come to "space control," for space situation awareness, the
> general said, "We need to know what's happening in our space
> environment, not only for what we have, but what other countries may
> have." He said the United States has a ground system that can read
> the lettering on a basketball out about 25,000 miles. But it's
> weather dependent.

Declan,

This seems like quite the exaggeration or astronomers have a lot to do
to catch up with the military!

Right now, (at least in un-classified research [1]) we think it's
practically impossible to read the lettering on a basketball farther
than 108 miles away... and that's with a 10 meter telescope [2] in
good weather. We could detect a planet roughly the size of the Earth
around the closest star, Alpha Centauri, with the system spoken of
above...

(This calculation assumes that basketball lettering is 1" tall... and
you would need higher resolution to actually "read" the lettering)

[1] http://shorl.com/hifrykugryfiju [adsabs.harvard.edu]
[2] http://www.astro.caltech.edu/mirror/keck/

take care,
Joe

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Joseph Lorenzo Hall                     jhall () astro berkeley edu
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Astronomy Department
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From: Rod Van Meter <Rod.VanMeter () nokia com>
To: declan () well com
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030313101911.02773cf0 () mail well com>
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10)
Date: 26 Mar 2003 08:19:54 -0800

This implies probably roughly 0.001 arc-second resolution (assuming
you're talking about reading the two-inch high "Spalding" on the
basketball).  The Hubble Space Telescope has a resolution of roughly
0.1-0.05 arc-seconds, depending on camera and wavelength.

So, this resolution capability is 10-100x that of Hubble.
Extraordinary, but not beyond the bounds of physics.  And yes, it's VERY
weather dependent; turbulent air will reduce that by at least one order
of magnitude, maybe as much as three.

And it isn't basketballs you're reading -- it's license plate numbers,
faces, maybe a map laid on a table.

                --Rod
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From: "JayHolovacs" <holovacs () 1st net>
To: <declan () well com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030313101911.02773cf0 () mail well com>
Subject: Re: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000 miles away
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:06:57 -0500

One wonders if some exaggeration is occurring.

The Raleigh criterion (which has been the object of intense study by
astronomers for centuries) limits resolution as a direct effect of the
wavelenght of the media, even with perfect optics. To resolve a basketball
at 25000 miles would require (for green light)  a 450" mirror, far larger
than any single mirror earth bound scope (which way many tons, and have to
be supported within fractions of a wavelength). I find it unlikely that a
mirror that large (the Keck miror required two massive diesel trucks simply
to pull it up the mountain) has been launced into space, even in secret.

That is before you account for all the cloud cover and atmospheric
turbulence.

jay

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From: "Paul \"Evil Genius\" Music" <evlpawl () cox net>
To: <declan () well com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030313101911.02773cf0 () mail well com>
Subject: Re: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000 
miles  away
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:30:20 -0600

----- Original Message -----
From: "Declan McCullagh" <declan () well com>
To: <politech () politechbot com>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 11:23 PM
Subject: FC: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000 miles
away

>
>     "I don't believe that many of them understand how powerful we are,"
>     the general told reporters. "All countries respect the power of the
>     United States and they respect how dominant we are in this region."
> .....................................
>     When it come to "space control," for space situation awareness, the
>     general said, "We need to know what's happening in our space
>     environment, not only for what we have, but what other countries may
>     have." He said the United States has a ground system that can read the
>     lettering on a basketball out about 25,000 miles. But it's weather
>     dependent.
>
       I'm sorry, Mr McCullagh, but that is pure disinfo BS. The Laws of
Optics make that impossible.
       You're a professional photographer, right? Film grain size, or even
the smallest digital camera  pixel-element would make it impossible to
resolve an image that small, through atmospheric turbulence. "Aperture
synthesis", with computer enhancement, still can't do that, but it would be
usefull for credulous enemies to believe so.

        Regards, Paul Music, BsC Physics.

---

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:11:53 +0100
From: Arturo Quirantes <aquiran () ugr es>
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62i) Personal
Reply-To: Arturo Quirantes <aquiran () ugr es>
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Message-ID: <971746854.20030317091153 () ugr es>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Subject: Politech on 25.000-miles-away snooping

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        Dear Declan,

        Concerning  claims  that  the  US  can  read  the  lettering
on a
basketball 25.000 miles away in space:

        IŽve  done some calculations on the subject. The ultimate limit
in
the resolution of an optical system comes from the Rayleigh criterion.
Two
objects  separated by an angle theta can be resolved (that is, seen as
two
different  light  sources)  only  if  theta>=1.22lam/D,  where  lam is
the
wavelength of the used light, and D is the telescope's aperture.

        For an object of size l at a distance r, that means

        D>=1.22*lam*r/l

        r=40.000 km, lam=500 nanometers, l=1 cm yields D>2.440 m

        That  is,  you'd  need  a mirror -or other optical surface-
with a
diameter of 2.4 kilometer !!!

        There's  an  alternative  called  interferometry.  If you have
two
small  telescopes at that distanced, and combine their signals, you
have a
system  with  a  resolution  equal  to that of a telescope as large as
the
distance  between  the  small telescopes. That is a technique long used
in
radioastronomy,  and  allows  radio  images  to be taken with a
resolution
equal to that obtained by a radiotelescope as large as Earth itself.

        However,  the largest optical interferometer I know of in
civilian
life  has  a  baseline  of  less  than  about 100 m. Is it possible
that a
large-bugdet  organization  like the military has done better? Yes, it
is.
But  they'd  need the best technicians and a very large budget to
overcome
the   technical  problems  associated  with  optical  interferometry,
the
atmosphere's  degradation  of  light,  accurate  aiming  at a far away
and
fast-moving target, etc.

        Too  much trouble just to read a basketball lettering 25.000
miles
away.  On  the  other  hand,  did  the  US try such systems to improve
the
resolution  of  their  earth  targets  from space? Again, possible. In
any
case,  the  program would be so sensitive that I doubt that a an Air
Force
general  would pop out in a press conference talking about it just to
show
how cool they are...


Declan McCullagh tenía muchas cosas que hacer, y a pesar de ello,
 el día 17/03/03, a las 9:01, escribió que:


D> U.S. Dominance in Space Makes General 'Pity the Enemy'


D>     When it come to "space control," for space situation awareness,
the
D>     general said, "We need to know what's happening in our space
D>     environment, not only for what we have, but what other countries
may
D>     have." He said the United States has a ground system that can
read the
D>     lettering on a basketball out about 25,000 miles. But it's
weather
D>     dependent.

- --
Salu2.  Arturo Quirantes (PGP key 0x4E2031EC)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Manifiesto 12 de Octubre: no a la LSSI
http://www.ugr.es/~aquiran/cripto/tc-lssi/lssi_12o.htm
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: Re: FC: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000 
miles  away
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:12:00 -0500
x-sender: vze2m8dz () mail verizon net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: John Verity <john.verity () verizon net>
To: <declan () well com>
Mime-Version: 1.0

>He said the United States has a ground system that can read the
>    lettering on a basketball out about 25,000 miles. But it's weather
>    dependent.

This is rhetorical hyperbole, I believe--in other words, technically not
true. Perhaps some US satellites have sufficient resolving power to "see"
a basketball and even to resolve the ball's large (inches-long) logo, but
I do not believe for a microsecond that these cameras can read the small
lettering on a basketball, which is what this military person's
deliberately vague and exaggerated statement leads one to think.

1) What means "a ground system?"

2) The resolution of the best US spy satellites is a closely guarded
secret. As anyone familiar with even consumer cameras will tell you, the
defining resolution is a complex technical subject, too.
    Looking at these pages below, you will find some (apparently)
reliable data. While it appears that 4-cm resolution has been achieved,
this is not from a distance of 25,000 miles; it is more on the order of
100 miles, from non-geosynchronous satellites that swoop in for a brief
look at a target.

Fed of American Scientists offers some useful numbers:

 http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/imint_101.htm

and especially:

 http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/resolve5.htm


here are some other interesting links:

 http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JeannelleLouis.shtml

and this:

 http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20020916/aw23.htm


John Verity
South Orange, NJ

---

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:32:49 -0800 (PST)
From: tack <tack () maria gaffle com>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Cc: politech () politechbot com
Subject: Re: FC: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000
 miles  away

>     have." He said the United States has a ground system that can read the
>     lettering on a basketball out about 25,000 miles. But it's weather
>     dependent.

What does he mean by 'ground system'?  That distance is close to the
circumference of the earth.  If he's talking about a system on the
ground, that statement means sometime's the fog's so thick, he can't read
a basketball he's holding in his hands.

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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 03:38:33 -0600
Subject: "read lettering on basketball" at 25K miles; but not shuttle tiles?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543)
From: Jim Davidson <davidson () net1 net>
To: declan () well com

Dear Declan,

I'm impressed with the rated capability of one
of the military's ground systems which can supposedly
read the lettering on a basketball orbiting at 25,000
miles (distance to geosynchronous orbit is 22,500
nautical miles).

This article made me wonder again at the stupidity of
NASA's management for not asking the military to task
that system to look at the _Columbia_ shuttle's wing.
I think such an obvious omission functions as
negligence.

Regards,

Jim
 http://www.houstonspacesociety.org/

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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:21:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Stormwalker <bruen () host49 duncable cust sover net>
Reply-To: bruen () coldrain net
To: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: FC: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000
 miles  away

Hi Declan,

  A better comparison might be 22,000 miles, the distance a satellite
  needs to be for geosychronous orbit.

  Geosynchronous orbit has been in use since (at least) 1965 with the
  Early Bird Communications Satelite. This story just sounds like an
  upgrade to the optics.

  Arthur C. Clarke of Sci-Fi fame first proposed geosynch in Wireless
  World Occtober, 1945 (although he may have spoken of it as early as
  April 1945).


                cheers, bob

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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:12:26 -0600
To: declan () well com
From: Scott Schram <scott () schram net>
Subject: Re: FC: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball"
  25,000 miles away

It would have been useful to look at the damaged shuttle with that 
telescope.  The NASA emails indicate that it was requested by engineers, 
and cancelled by management.

Roger Simpson (NASA) wrote to the telescope people: "Thank you for the 
enthusiastic response to the request for Shuttle support yesterday. ... we 
... appreciate the effort and apologize for any inconvenience the 
cancellation of the request may have caused. ... Let me assure you that ... 
the Shuttle was in excellent shape ..."

Scott

http://schram.net

---

From: "Thomas Leavitt" <thomasleavitt () hotmail com>
To: <declan () well com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030313101911.02773cf0 () mail well com>
Subject: Re: U.S. spy gear can "read lettering on basketball" 25,000 
miles  away
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:23:55 -0800
Organization: B40
MIME-Version: 1.0

What a fascinating glimpse into the info-warfare mentality... I wonder what
Patton would make of jargon spouting generals like this?

We are all well aware of the fragility of modern civilian communications
networks... there was one point during the mid-1990's at which I was
completely confident that, should he have desired to do so, one of my more
brilliant and talented employees was fully capable of taking down the entire
Internet single-handedly ... and I'm sure he was not alone in this
capability, or that the tactic he could have used was the only method
available to do so. Hell... technical issues aside, back when an ungodly
percentage of the world's Internet traffic flowed through MAE-West, I could
have exploited the incredibly lax physical security of that facility to do
this myself.

In fact, I'm sure that even today, equivalent approaches, both
sophisticated, and otherwise, exist and are well known to a few people
(probably several folks on this list)... and, while nothing ever matched the
ability of Yahoo's stock price to induce amazement, the fact that this
hasn't yet happened comes in a close second. Says a lot about the how most
humans, in fact, are basically responsible individuals.

I wonder how much more difficult it would be for a motivated attacker to
induce widespread disruption in American military networks? If we're so
space dependent, what do we do if China decides to use its launch capability
to flood orbital regions with large quantities of high speed debris, perhaps
in combination with a few targeted EMP pulses? What is the response to a
massive campaign of sabatoge aimed at military and civilian communication
and information distribution networks in the United States? How would they
deal with information overload from widespread and co-ordinated attacks
against civilian and military infrastructure designed to stress and break
management and co-ordination capabilities by giving the humans in the loop
too many things to deal with, and flooding remaining communications
capability with high priority messages?

Regards,
Thomas Leavitt

--
Thomas Leavitt, Sr. Systems Admin For Hire
Resume at http://www.thomasleavitt.org/personal/resume/
Phone: 408-591-3342 / Email: thomas () thomasleavitt org / Fax: 815-371-2804




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