Re: IPv4 Pricing

[Shane Ronan via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>]

My experience has actually been that if I can likely determine the
cause BEFORE they speak to a representative and I can play a message
informing them "We have noticed your equipment may have lost power, please
check the power to your equipment before continuing", my customer
satisfaction actually goes up.

I wouldn't suggest playing it for everyone, just those where you have seen
that last gap.

Shane

On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 2:04 PM Josh Luthman <josh () imaginenetworksllc com>
wrote:

> I may do that.  I haven't gotten to the point where I want to.
>
> Imagine your parents or grandparents call in wanting to speak to an agent
> only to end up listening to a recording.  That's frustrating for the end
> user.  Like when you call any 800 number and it starts giving you options
> and wanting you to provide information to talk to the right department who
> of course answers only to transfer you to a different department.
>
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2025, 1:53 PM Shane Ronan <shane () ronan-online com> wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't it make sense to then play a message for those users before they
> > even connect to a representative to check the power to their equipment?
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 1:41 PM Josh Luthman via NANOG <
> > nanog () lists nanog org> wrote:
> >
> > > Because we would get things like "why is my IP address super long, I
> > > can't
> > > play Xbox now" or "my computer says it is IPv6 enabled, does that mean
> > > someone hacked me?"
> > >
> > > I manage the entire thing and let me give you an example of a ticket from
> > > this morning.  The customer called in and said they unplugged some things
> > > and moved stuff around the house.  Since then their internet/phone
> > > (landline) has not been working.  CSR asked if device was plugged in to
> > > power.  It was not.  Customer plugged it in.
> > >
> > > You have to realize the people we're dealing with on this topic.  We get
> > > the calls for anything internet related at all because people don't use
> > > their brain to connect the situation of unplugging the internet company's
> > > box from power and it not working.  I wrote a script that takes all
> > > incoming calls and scans the customer's device to see if it has dying
> > > gasp
> > > and then posts to Slack.  That post comes up for 20% of our calls -
> > > people
> > > without power or unplugging it.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 1:35 PM Tom Beecher <beecher () beecher cc> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I did.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of managing tier 1
> > > customer
> > > > > support issues through the tick box of enable IPv6 and managing their
> > > > > subnets.  Implementation for me doesn't stop once it's enabled on the
> > > > > router.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not picking on you specifically here, but it's generally funny to hear
> > > > "none of my users ask for V6" , then "my support will be run over with
> > > V6
> > > > setup questions". :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 3:09 PM Josh Luthman <
> > > josh () imaginenetworksllc com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > Read my entire message please. That statement was speaking to the
> > > > > implementation issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did.  I'm looking at it from the perspective of managing tier 1
> > > > > customer support issues through the tick box of enable IPv6 and
> > > managing
> > > > > their subnets.  Implementation for me doesn't stop once it's enabled
> > > on the
> > > > > router.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 2:48 PM Tom Beecher <beecher () beecher cc>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > That's absolutely not true.  Tier 1 support will have to deal with v6
> > > > > > > issues.  Customers will have additional issues due to IPv6.
> > > Absolutely
> > > > > > > more than a v4 only network (today, not speaking for the future).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Read my entire message please. That statement was speaking to the
> > > > > > implementation issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I addressed (separately) the support aspects. Are there cases where
> > > v6
> > > > > > specifically causes customer issues? Yes. Are those cases
> > > exceedingly rare
> > > > > > these days? Yes. While things happen, the vast majority of user
> > > facing
> > > > > > stuff these days follows Happy Eyeballs pretty good, and Just Works
> > > when
> > > > > > you have both 4 and 6 available.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 2:28 PM Josh Luthman via NANOG <
> > > > > > nanog () lists nanog org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes there can be some things to shake out to implement it, but once
> > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > are done, they're done.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's absolutely not true.  Tier 1 support will have to deal with
> > > v6
> > > > > > > issues.  Customers will have additional issues due to IPv6.
> > > Absolutely
> > > > > > > more than a v4 only network (today, not speaking for the future).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What are your end users talking to that is IPv4-only these days,
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > it’s not much pretty much all the e-mail/cloud/office/docs things
> > > are
> > > > > > > IPv6
> > > > > > > these days, and yeah it’s harder to remember 2620:fe::fe than
> > > 9.9.9.9
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > who besides a few of us still have phone numbers memorized either
> > > these
> > > > > > > days?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Little websites named after a forest and an auction website for old
> > > junk
> > > > > > > (Amazon and Ebay).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 2:23 PM Jared Mauch via NANOG <
> > > > > > > nanog () lists nanog org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Dec 1, 2025, at 2:06 PM, Tom Beecher via NANOG <
> > > > > > > nanog () lists nanog org>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > this thread has done nothing except rehash the same viewpoints
> > > > > > > that get
> > > > > > > > > > discussed ad nauseam for the last however many years.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if you just don't see it or you're being funny.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It's a correct statement.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "IPv6 doesn't work" : Google's stats show that just shy of 50%
> > > of
> > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > traffic is native V6. Most of the largest CDNs will give you
> > > similar
> > > > > > > > > answers. Yes there can be some things to shake out to implement
> > > it,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > once those are done, they're done.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "My customers don't ask for it." : Customers don't ask for IPv4.
> > > > > > > They
> > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > ask for NAT/CGNAT either. But you do those things I'm sure,
> > > because
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > said, they just want things to work.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The answer is really money. You made a business decision not to
> > > > > > > incur the
> > > > > > > > > hardware/software/support costs to implement V6 for your
> > > customers.
> > > > > > > > That's
> > > > > > > > > fine, no shame in that. Maybe that will never be a problem for
> > > you,
> > > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > someday it will and it will cost you. Who knows.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But just be honest and call it what it is, instead of half baked
> > > > > > > > statements
> > > > > > > > > that have been repeated for decades.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Talking to friends at companies that do social networking stuff
> > > pretty
> > > > > > > > much all their traffic (over 90%) is from mobile devices, and
> > > when I
> > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > at the big 3 mobile networks in the US they all do IPv6.  Their
> > > MVNO’s
> > > > > > > > might vary, but the main networks do IPv6.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I find myself having to tether off their networks when I’m on IPv4
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > networks to access things like my hypervisors and other assets
> > > that
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > IPv6-only because they have superior networking these days.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you are doing IPv4-only, you are only harming yourself
> > > long-term.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > solutions are there for all the things you think you will
> > > encounter.
> > > > > > > For
> > > > > > > > the most part it’s 96 more bits, no magic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes there are a few nuances to be aware of, like proxy-arp saves a
> > > > > > > lot of
> > > > > > > > people when they do kinky things in IPv4 and proxy-NDP is there,
> > > but
> > > > > > > not in
> > > > > > > > the same way on many platforms.  One of the last big hurdles out
> > > > > > > there was
> > > > > > > > IPv6 support for VTEP in FRR in my mind and that gap was recently
> > > > > > > closed.
> > > > > > > > I also happen to think that Apple got it wrong when they rolled
> > > > > > > private
> > > > > > > > relay out, they kept the inbound tunnel protocol to outbound proxy
> > > > > > > behavior
> > > > > > > > on the same address family when they could have upgraded it on the
> > > > > > > outbound
> > > > > > > > side to IPv6 which would have closed the gap even more.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What are your end users talking to that is IPv4-only these days,
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > it’s not much pretty much all the e-mail/cloud/office/docs things
> > > are
> > > > > > > IPv6
> > > > > > > > these days, and yeah it’s harder to remember 2620:fe::fe than
> > > 9.9.9.9
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > who besides a few of us still have phone numbers memorized either
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > days?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you need a ton of IPv4 space?  Not really, but if you’re a
> > > cable
> > > > > > > > company like RCN, yeah you’re not doing any upgrades, but if you
> > > are
> > > > > > > > leaving assets on IPv4 just because you are leaving them on IPv4,
> > > > > > > then at
> > > > > > > > some point you are just wasting money.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Send it to me and Tom so we can buy more hockey tickets.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Jared
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