Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse

[Suresh Ramasubramanian via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>]

Everyone that has a network, everyone that runs an organisation that provides and registers resources - netblocks, 
asns, domains .. everyone that insists it isn’t their problem it is somebody else’s.

--srs
________________________________
From: nanog () immibis com <nanog () immibis com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2025 4:42:46 PM
To: North American Network Operators Group <nanog () lists nanog org>; Suresh Ramasubramanian via NANOG <nanog () lists 
nanog org>
Cc: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists () gmail com>
Subject: Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse

I'm curious who you think is the internet police.


On 18 August 2025 04:18:18 CEST, Suresh Ramasubramanian via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org> wrote:

It isn’t just cops it is all the various people and orgs in the ecosystem who are all convinced they aren’t the 
internet police.

--srs
________________________________
From: Michael Thomas via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2025 7:46:01 AM
To: nanog () lists nanog org <nanog () lists nanog org>
Cc: Michael Thomas <mike () mtcc com>
Subject: Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse


On 8/17/25 5:15 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian via NANOG wrote:
 Real economics as a factor has been studied quite a lot - check for papers by Vern Paxson, Stefan Savage etc and 
you’ll find some going back 20+ years.

 A lot of the real economic impact just doesn’t lie in technical solutions though.


There is a lot of damage done for tons of things. Yet, Visa still
exists. Fraud exists. It's a cost of doing business. It's just petty
crime. Nothing is going to stop it. That is what the joke is. The cops
don't give a flying fuck about this, and never will. They don't care
about anything if it doesn't involve donuts.

Mike


 From: Marc Binderberger via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>
 Date: Sunday, 17 August 2025 at 5:37 PM
 To: North American Network Operators Group <nanog () lists nanog org>
 Cc: Marc Binderberger <marc+lists () sniff es>
 Subject: Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse


 On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:24:04 -0700, Michael Thomas via NANOG wrote:

Barry has been going on about this idea for decades, I think. It wouldn't
work then, it won't work now.
 Until some idea suddenly works. Or an old idea becomes feasible.

 Frankly, many things we take for granted today would not exist with that
 "won't work" attitude. The better question (imho) to Barry is: how is your
 idea different from the already existing proposals?

 Barry has a reasonable theory - that the economics of spamming is brittle -
 but it is just that: a theory.

 And most of the (failed) proposals seem academic and avoid actual "costs" in
 terms of money. Or raise the real-world costs for everyone, if you need CPU
 cycles to participate in the email system. So Barry stepping out of this box
 and suggesting real economics as a factor is not unreasonable. I am not sure
 if there are more concrete details though (?).


Nobody can put up a coherent argument for why
the current cat and mouse situation isn't the acceptable balance,
 I guess "acceptable" can be defined as: Hey, I can always get a free personal
 account with gmail. And as a company I pay Google or Microsoft, save money on
 my IT staff. And good luck blocking "me" (i.e. Google, Microsoft).

 Maybe a problem if you are in the email business, fine with me, my domain is
 a private hobby. In fact, for all their "flaws", seeing the insanity of the
 know-it-all experts (some here on the list) I think I prefer Google
 requesting some reputation steps and a webpage explaining it. The
 alternative: being blocked for "Excessive Spam - Come back when you have
 fixed it". No further details. Sure, private domain, private VPS, no BL/score
 listing that I can find ... fortunately that blocking was just a Cc: to one
 of my posts, so I could not care less. The acceptable state of the mail
 system today!

 So there you may have an argument: that the increasing number of mechanisms,
 lists, tricks make the mail system less work-able and more broken. But I have
 no crystal ball, if email will finally break or will keep going - I don't
 know. Would be just sad if it breaks (but I have a gmail account as a backup
 ;-)

 Marc
________________________________
 NANOG mailing list
 https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog () lists nanog org/message/SAZSIVJFOO2HJX4JPDFXXZZBLT3ZBKQ5/
________________________________
 NANOG mailing list
 https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog () lists nanog org/message/DCKS64CINBGHI7M5I6IHMJ7NVCJLTBLG/
________________________________
NANOG mailing list
https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog () lists nanog org/message/G7FDDNH3JPETIG2UGUL34POYPDO2BDGR/
________________________________
NANOG mailing list
https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog () lists nanog org/message/Z54AAQL64TAPICROM3UEYHCOD73FQTWV/
_______________________________________________
NANOG mailing list 
https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog () lists nanog org/message/3N3CRV2REZWCT2MJ5RC63M4KMUKEVJVW/