Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse

[nanog--- via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>]

Should everyone have the freedom to police their own network the way 
they want, or should everyone police their network the way *you* want? 
If the latter, why *you* instead of, say, the way Donald Trump wants? He 
is the president after all.


On 18/08/25 13:42, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
> Everyone that has a network, everyone that runs an organisation that 
> provides and registers resources - netblocks, asns, domains .. 
> everyone that insists it isn’t their problem it is somebody else’s.
>
> --srs
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* nanog () immibis com <nanog () immibis com>
> *Sent:* Monday, August 18, 2025 4:42:46 PM
> *To:* North American Network Operators Group <nanog () lists nanog org>; 
> Suresh Ramasubramanian via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>
> *Cc:* Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists () gmail com>
> *Subject:* Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse
> I'm curious who you think is the internet police.
>
>
> On 18 August 2025 04:18:18 CEST, Suresh Ramasubramanian via NANOG 
> <nanog () lists nanog org> wrote:
>
>     It isn’t just cops it is all the various people and orgs in the
>     ecosystem who are all convinced they aren’t the internet police. --srs
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     From: Michael Thomas via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org> Sent:
>     Monday, August 18, 2025 7:46:01 AM To: nanog () lists nanog org
>     <nanog () lists nanog org> Cc: Michael Thomas <mike () mtcc com>
>     Subject: Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse On
>     8/17/25 5:15 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian via NANOG wrote:
>
>         Real economics as a factor has been studied quite a lot -
>         check for papers by Vern Paxson, Stefan Savage etc and you’ll
>         find some going back 20+ years. A lot of the real economic
>         impact just doesn’t lie in technical solutions though. 
>
>     There is a lot of damage done for tons of things. Yet, Visa still
>     exists. Fraud exists. It's a cost of doing business. It's just
>     petty crime. Nothing is going to stop it. That is what the joke
>     is. The cops don't give a flying fuck about this, and never will.
>     They don't care about anything if it doesn't involve donuts. Mike
>
>         From: Marc Binderberger via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>
>         Date: Sunday, 17 August 2025 at 5:37 PM To: North American
>         Network Operators Group <nanog () lists nanog org> Cc: Marc
>         Binderberger <marc+lists () sniff es> Subject: Re: Worsening
>         google service reputation and abuse On Sat, 16 Aug 2025
>         17:24:04 -0700, Michael Thomas via NANOG wrote:
>
>             Barry has been going on about this idea for decades, I
>             think. It wouldn't work then, it won't work now. 
>
>         Until some idea suddenly works. Or an old idea becomes
>         feasible. Frankly, many things we take for granted today would
>         not exist with that "won't work" attitude. The better question
>         (imho) to Barry is: how is your idea different from the
>         already existing proposals? Barry has a reasonable theory -
>         that the economics of spamming is brittle - but it is just
>         that: a theory. And most of the (failed) proposals seem
>         academic and avoid actual "costs" in terms of money. Or raise
>         the real-world costs for everyone, if you need CPU cycles to
>         participate in the email system. So Barry stepping out of this
>         box and suggesting real economics as a factor is not
>         unreasonable. I am not sure if there are more concrete details
>         though (?).
>
>             Nobody can put up a coherent argument for why the current
>             cat and mouse situation isn't the acceptable balance, 
>
>         I guess "acceptable" can be defined as: Hey, I can always get
>         a free personal account with gmail. And as a company I pay
>         Google or Microsoft, save money on my IT staff. And good luck
>         blocking "me" (i.e. Google, Microsoft). Maybe a problem if you
>         are in the email business, fine with me, my domain is a
>         private hobby. In fact, for all their "flaws", seeing the
>         insanity of the know-it-all experts (some here on the list) I
>         think I prefer Google requesting some reputation steps and a
>         webpage explaining it. The alternative: being blocked for
>         "Excessive Spam - Come back when you have fixed it". No
>         further details. Sure, private domain, private VPS, no
>         BL/score listing that I can find ... fortunately that blocking
>         was just a Cc: to one of my posts, so I could not care less.
>         The acceptable state of the mail system today! So there you
>         may have an argument: that the increasing number of
>         mechanisms, lists, tricks make the mail system less work-able
>         and more broken. But I have no crystal ball, if email will
>         finally break or will keep going - I don't know. Would be just
>         sad if it breaks (but I have a gmail account as a backup ;-) Marc
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