Re: SPF/DKIM/DMARC et.al.: REALLY LONG [was: is it just me or...]

[Barry Shein via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>]

On July 6, 2025 at 17:30 johnl () taugh com (John Levine) wrote:
> On 06-07-2025 17:05, bzs () theworld com wrote:
> >   > The B2B spam I get from throwaway accounts at large mail
> >   > providers is probably only 1000 or less at a time since that's all you can
> >   > send that way.  I do not think there is one master criminal with a million
> >   > throwaway Gmail accounts.
> >
> > You've moved from spam to ham, no?
>
> It's spam, bulk mail sent to people who didn't ask for it.  Some offer 
> SEO, some offer financing for my non-existent business, it's all clearly 
> purchased lists sending mail in bulk to strangers.

I probably have a broader definition of "spam" than most which amounts
to: if I'm not being paid to deliver it by the sender then it's spam.

> > Do you have to show ID to drop a stamped envelope in a postal box?
>
> Wait a minute.  Stamps?  Where did the stamps come from?  Who issues 
> them? Who decides if they're real?  Perhaps you should reread my white 
> paper more carefully.

You brought up IDs I was just reacting...

> Beyond the fact that the underlying assumption is wrong, that's extremely 
> unlikely to work unless you envision a world where you have to show ID and 
> get a license to send mail.

> R's,
> John
>
> >   > At this point I get a whole lot of mail from Salesforce and Sendgrid.  I
> >   > would love to block them but unfortunately they also send a lot of mail my
> >   > users want, so I have to do hacks that try to recognize the customer and
> >   > let through the less bad ones.  It is painfully clear that they have made
> >   > business decisions not to spend enough money on abuse management to clean
> >   > this up.  The mail gets through, why should they?
> >
> > Again this is what is generally called "ham" unless you want
> > to apply it to anything you're not personally interested in.
>
> Again, bulk mail sent to strangers.  It's the normal definition of spam.
> I'm not talking about companies that send you ads after you order 
> something, this is spam sent to complete strangers.

I don't disagree, I just think the tide of "ham" is rising rapidly and
this reasonable-sounding definition of spam is becoming unworkable.

And, I'll add, it was pretty much inevitable, tragedy of the commons
and all that.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs () TheWorld com             | http://www.TheWorld.com
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