Re: Adversarial interop is now illegal? (Re: U.S. Secret Service shuts down NYC cellular disruption network)

[Kurtis Heimerl via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>]

While this is true (as far as this non-lawyer understands) it's important
to note that telecom is a highly regulated space and VoIP links are a
constant source of violations and scams. For example, termination rates are
an abhorrent mess (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termination_rates) that
have historically been a big part of regional scam setups where rural
termination fees were set high by policy (ostensibly to encourage
communication infrastructure in rural areas) and then some provider makes
sure to land all their calls in that area (then VoIPing it out to the
actual call center somewhere else) to gather those fees. As some of the
older folks on the list may remember, this is why all of the "free
conference call" numbers were in Nebraska. That can be actual fraud as
they're avoiding fees and taxes and these sorts of devices are a common
part of how to do that. Basically "thar be dragons" in telecom policy law
and this may well be actually illegal.

Regardless, no one was overloading the cell network with 100k phones in
NYC. These are just standard schemes being played in admission controlled
and price discriminated networks and it shouldn't be big news that one got
popped.

On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 11:20 AM nanog--- via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>
wrote:

> Read between the lines: "some cheap VOIP provider was reselling real SIM
> cards" (not a crime, certainly not a secret-service-worthy crime, might
> be a civil violation of contract with the network or maybe not even
> that) "and one of their customers called the white house and threatened
> to assassinate the president" "so we stole all this provider's equipment
> and we'll never give it back"
>
> Adversarial interoperability is almost the norm now wherever two
> businesses without clearly aligned interests meet, and it's not illegal
> except in a few specific cases. One party raises their wall; the other
> one raises their ladder. See also the use of residential proxies to
> bypass Cloudflare, which is also not illegal (except where they are
> obtained by infecting someone's computer with a botnet). In the end
> nobody wins except the manufacturers of walls and ladders. A good reason
> to support open protocols.
>
> It may be a violation of contract, but it's not illegal to violate
> contracts; it just entitles your counterparty to force you to repay
> whatever damages they can convince a judge they suffered. I know it's
> typical for engineers to interpret contracts as things you MUST follow
> OR ELSE, but that's not actually universally the case. And AFAIK, it's
> debatable whether terms of service are even enforceable at all.
>
> Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, and you should
> seek real legal advice from a lawyer before breaking contracts or terms
> of service.
>
>
>
>
> On 24/09/2025 13:38, Mel Beckman wrote:
> > > It's one thing if they discovered a criminal enterprise that was
> > > actually using this equipment as their communications hub,
> >
> > But that’s precisely what the SS says:
> > “The U.S. Secret Service dismantled a network of electronic devices
> > located throughout the New York tristate area that were used to
> > conduct multiple telecommunications-related threats directed towards
> > senior U.S. government officials,…”
> >
> > and
> >
> > “….early analysis indicates cellular communications between
> > nation-state threat actors and individuals that are known to federal
> > law enforcement.”
> >
> > They dismantled a network that they found were actively prosecuting
> > threats.
> >
> > This wasn’t just some hacker’s randomly assembled kit of penetration
> > tools. This clearly cost a lot of money to set up and maintain.
> >
> >  -mel
> >
> > > On Sep 24, 2025, at 2:13 AM, nanog--- via NANOG
> > > <nanog () lists nanog org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Upon actually reading the article, this looks overblown, typical of
> > > the current regime.
> > >
> > > Having a lot of SIM cards, a lot of phones, having phones in a
> > > rack-mount form factor, and plugging SIM cards into things that are
> > > not phones are not illegal.
> > >
> > > The fact that a cellphone network could be overloaded by a lot of
> > > phones doesn't make it illegal to have a lot of phones. Even if it
> > > /does/ overload the cellphone network, AFAIK it's still not illegal
> > > unless that was your intention.
> > >
> > >
> > > Their other justification is even worse:
> > >
> > > "These devices could be used for... facilitating anonymous, encrypted
> > > communication between potential threat actors and criminal
> > > enterprises" - MEGA YIKES. So they're outlawing encryption now?
> > > Anything that can send communication can send encrypted
> > > communication. It's one thing if they discovered a criminal
> > > enterprise that was actually using this equipment as their
> > > communications hub, as I believe the law allows them to seize stuff
> > > used for a crime regardless of its other uses. But only in America
> > > (and Russia, Iran, North Korea) can they legally seize stuff just
> > > because it /could hypothetically/ be used for a crime, and then not
> > > give it back.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 23/09/2025 18:46, Mel Beckman via NANOG wrote:
> > > > The U.S. Secret Service announced today that it dismantled a network
> > > > of electronic devices located throughout the New York tristate area
> > > > that were used to conduct multiple telecommunications-related
> > > > threats directed towards senior U.S. government officials, which
> > > > represented an imminent threat to the agency’s protective operations.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The SS say they discovered more than 300 co-located SIM servers and
> > > > 100,000 SIM cards across multiple sites, and while the photo they
> > > > provide shows gear set up in what looks like an apartment, it could
> > > > be that interlopers have infiltrated actual Internet colo facilities.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As a colo operator, I’ve turned away more than a few sketchy
> > > > potential customers due to their flakey stories requesting rooftop
> > > > or window antenna locations. Be on the lookout.
> https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2025/09/us-secret-service-dismantles-imminent-telecommunications-threat-new-york#:~:text=NEW%20YORK%20–%20The%20U.S.%20Secret,SIM%20cards%20across%20multiple%20sites
> <https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2025/09/us-secret-service-dismantles-imminent-telecommunications-threat-new-york#:~:text=NEW%20YORK%20%E2%80%93%20The%20U.S.%20Secret,SIM%20cards%20across%20multiple%20sites>
> .<
> https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2025/09/us-secret-service-dismantles-imminent-telecommunications-threat-new-york#:~:text=NEW%2520YORK%2520%E2%80%93%2520The%2520U.S.%2520Secret,SIM%2520cards%2520across%2520multiple%2520sites
> .>
> > > >  -mel beckman
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