Re: [NANOG] Re: Geofeeds are good — was Re: Publishing BGP communties for your network (Re: What's up with BGP communities?)

[Abdullah DevRel of IPinfo via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>]

IP geolocation is a hot button issue that all ISPs are not happy about. This "not happy about"ness stems from IP 
geolocation providers historically not showing any incentive to support ISPs about their data. ISPs feel like they are 
unheard and that they could not help their customers who blame the ISPs for not being able to watch the game on the 
weekend due to a blackout or something.

That is the intention of why I am here. My history in the NANOG community is about ISPs and ASNs saying all IP 
geolocation providers are the same - invisible and slow to move. I am here to say do not lump us with the rest of the 
industry, please. We are tangible and visible. If you have an issue with us, talk to us directly.

> Some, probably many, networking companies might have little incentive to do work for free for you so you can succeed 
> in your business.

Thank you for saying this.

What the system is:

Geofeed is designed for ISPs to systematically inform IP geolocation providers where their prefixes are located for 
free in the first place. The issue largely relates ASNs just maintaining a public record of sorts.

Now, in terms of our data, our primary source and verification systems revolve around active measurements through 
ProbeNet. This means that based on RTT, we geolocate an IP address in Richmond, VA, but the geofeed says it is Casper, 
WY. We will show Richmond, VA. Both the sourcing and verification method relies on active measurements.

But if the ASN operation says there is a network architecture issue, then we will investigate to see if there actually 
is noise in the active measurement and if trusting your geofeed is a reliable method. Geofeed as a system does not have 
a verification system.

Now, say you do not maintain a geofeed, and based on the available location hints we have, we point to the location we 
have evidence for. Your customer could come to you (rarely happens with us) and ask why they cannot see the game 
because of geofencing or other issues. How do you respond to that question? Talk with the streaming company support? 
That is just wrong, in my opinion. You need your customer to talk to the IP geolocation provider or at least help the 
IP geolocation provider in the first place to avoid such conversations. In fact, I do not believe there should be any 
conversations in the first place. IP geolocation data should be right from the get-go. And that is what we are trying 
to do.

It is the IP geolocation providers' data, and they are responsible. It is entirely up to you what decisions you make. 
You are not obligated to tell us anything.

What we do at IPinfo:

I am very happy you brought up the idea of an incentive. We operate 1320 servers around the world using a small VPS 
through which we take internet measurements. Geofeed does not have a monetary incentive and rather something ISPs 
should maintain. But because we need a system that is verifiable, we built our own system which involves buying hosting 
services directly with ASNs/ISPs to allow us to provide good data for the ASN. As far as everyone is concerned, paying 
for the server is the best mutually financially beneficial situation you can imagine.

- For us, we get the data and we always ensure we have your prefix locations right and your ASN's prefix locations 
correct.
- For you, you get to sell us hosting services and we always get your location right.

And this arrangement of paying for hosting is our best way to provide consistent, high-quality data for you and your 
customers. We are happy to pay for your service and generosity in hosting us on your platform by purchasing a server 
from you. Even when we are paying for the server, I feel like ISPs end up doing much more of the heavy lifting in our 
partnerships, as many ISPs do not have commercial hosting offerings. They have to make special arrangements just for 
us. To me it is always the ISPs and ASNs helping us more than we could.

Here is our form: https://forms.gle/kNYr2MBL8zRPgNrJ8 

There are 70 thousand ASNs out there. Ideally, we need a server hosted in every possible data center. We are willing to 
pay for this. Our goal is to reach 200 countries and reach 2,000 PoPs this year.

Let me know what you think, please. We are trying our best to find incentive-first systems with ASNs. We have some 
pilot programs planned out as well. We appreciate the unconditional help ASNs provide, but we want to move towards a 
mutually beneficial system. Us being accurate about IP geolocation is not a service towards ISPs, it is an absolute 
requirement.

— Abdullah | DevRel, IPinfo
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