Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse

[Marc Binderberger via NANOG <nanog () lists nanog org>]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:24:04 -0700, Michael Thomas via NANOG wrote:

> Barry has been going on about this idea for decades, I think. It wouldn't 
> work then, it won't work now.

Until some idea suddenly works. Or an old idea becomes feasible.

Frankly, many things we take for granted today would not exist with that 
"won't work" attitude. The better question (imho) to Barry is: how is your 
idea different from the already existing proposals?

Barry has a reasonable theory - that the economics of spamming is brittle - 
but it is just that: a theory.

And most of the (failed) proposals seem academic and avoid actual "costs" in 
terms of money. Or raise the real-world costs for everyone, if you need CPU 
cycles to participate in the email system. So Barry stepping out of this box 
and suggesting real economics as a factor is not unreasonable. I am not sure 
if there are more concrete details though (?).


> Nobody can put up a coherent argument for why 
> the current cat and mouse situation isn't the acceptable balance,

I guess "acceptable" can be defined as: Hey, I can always get a free personal 
account with gmail. And as a company I pay Google or Microsoft, save money on 
my IT staff. And good luck blocking "me" (i.e. Google, Microsoft).

Maybe a problem if you are in the email business, fine with me, my domain is 
a private hobby. In fact, for all their "flaws", seeing the insanity of the 
know-it-all experts (some here on the list) I think I prefer Google 
requesting some reputation steps and a webpage explaining it. The 
alternative: being blocked for "Excessive Spam - Come back when you have 
fixed it". No further details. Sure, private domain, private VPS, no BL/score 
listing that I can find ... fortunately that blocking was just a Cc: to one 
of my posts, so I could not care less. The acceptable state of the mail 
system today!

So there you may have an argument: that the increasing number of mechanisms, 
lists, tricks make the mail system less work-able and more broken. But I have 
no crystal ball, if email will finally break or will keep going - I don't 
know. Would be just sad if it breaks (but I have a gmail account as a backup 
;-)

Marc


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